Guest guest Posted March 19, 2000 Report Share Posted March 19, 2000 Namaste All, This is from El,From K-List,thought it mght help! Tony. KUNDALINI SIGNS AND SYMPTOMS El Collie Many individuals whose Kundalini has been unexpectedly unleashed DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING, and the prevailing social ignorance about this multidimensional transformative process makes it hard to find medical or alternative health practitioners or spiritual advisors who recognize the symptoms, particularly when they are strongly physical. Many people know that the risen Kundalini flings open gates to all sorts of mystical, paranormal and magical vistas but few realize it can also dramatically impact the body. A large percentage of Shared Transformation rs have reported long bouts of strange illness as well as radical mental, emotional, interpersonal, psychic, spiritual and lifestyle changes. Over and again we hear stories of frustrating, sometimes desperate visits to doctors, healers, counselors, etc. who neither understood nor were able to help with the myriad pains and problems catalyzed by raging Kundalini. The following are common manifestations of the risen Kundalini: Muscle twitches, cramps or spasms. Energy rushes or immense electricity circulating the body Itching, vibrating, prickling, tingling, stinging or crawling sensations Intense heat or cold Involuntary bodily movements (occur more often during meditation, rest or sleep): jerking, tremors, shaking; feeling an inner force pushing one into postures or moving one's body in unusual ways. (May be misdiagnosed as epilepsy, restless legs syndrome (RLS), or PLMD.) Alterations in eating and sleeping patterns Episodes of extreme hyperactivity or, conversely, overwhelming fatigue (some CFS victims are experiencing Kundalini awakening) Intensified or diminished sexual desires Headaches, pressures within the skull Racing heartbeat, pains in the chest Digestive system problems Numbness or pain in the limbs (particularly the left foot and leg) Pains and blockages anywhere; often in the back and neck (Many cases of FMS are Kundalini-related.)END.< Tony. Namaste All, My Own Thoughts and experience. K is in the subtle nadis or nerves not in the physiological, neurological, system per se! 1) K is the Power of Sakti,or Prana-K, all is Prana but different manifestations of same. 2) The K is never painful only blissful and meditative. 3) What then is the activity and the 'experiences'? -Prana-K? 4) Totally risen K is impercetible for it is Samadhi. 5) Some people with risen K have no experiences and happenings at all, not even ecstasy, if they are above it in Nirvikalpa Samadhi. 6) In the end the proof of risen K is the level of spirituality and awareness. 7) I personally do not get dramatic experiences now. However I have smooth rises to my crown sahasrara. If I wish not to interfere, the consciouness is lost into deep meditation. For I use Chakra meditation before complete Dhyana meditation. These are really my own preferences for even if I did nothing it still rises and seems everywhere. Sometimes on returning there is a blissful energy, which I consider a memory. 8) I account for my particular rising of K to Japa or repeating tantric mantras many many times repetitively prior to meditation. This raises the K imperceptibly and is noticed by awareness or moving into the higher than mind sheaths or kosas. 9) So as I was now on the spiritual path again, my Inner Guru, Super-Super Consciousness, Devi, Saguna Brahman, Narayana, took charge of 'The Rising', henceforth it would be mainly Inner, or directly to the Higher Sheaths or Kosas. 10) A perfect rising of K would be 'Realisation', without any experiences at all, for that is above the field of experiences. Many Saints like Sarada Devi, Ramakrishna's consort are like this, No overt K for it is risen! I avoided the heavy prana-k, after the initial experiences, by the Tantric method of direct perception due to mantras. One must also remember that Sakti is a power of the Saguna Brahman or God with Attributes, which is ultimately unreal also, for non-attribute meditation takes one to the ultimate non attribute consciousness, Nirguna Brahman or whatever. This observation seems to be covered in part, at least, by Gopi Krishna, Swami Lashmanjoo, Sri Sarada Devi etc. Why did my manifestation of K start at the Heart Chakra. Well there was some prior activity as a child; However I think it had more to do with where I was at in previous lives than anything. How did I feel? A rush of energy and tremendous feelings of what I can only call Love or Bliss, and connection with everything. I nearly fell over! This had happened before, as a young boy, but not as dramatically, however the prior experience lasted for quite some time, some hours even. I had no idea what it was on any of these occasions. Of course there was an expanding of psychic awareness as well, which I really regarded as distractions. Each person has a different experience of course. I think it depends on the purification level of the inner sheaths and Buddhi or awareness sheath, vijnanmayakosa. If there is a presence of heavier vibrations due to, thoughts, lifestyle, company, alcohol, tobacco, meat-eating, etc etc , these may first have to be burned off, so to speak, hence cleansing prana-k. Sadhana or spiritual practice and purification of the senses avoids this sometimes painful process. One may say but this or that spiritual person went through it anyway in their early days. This may be due to deeply imbedded impressions or samskaras from previous unspiritual lifetimes. Some people practice no purifications and hence have continual prana-k cleansings. It is said the K, rises up in the inner Citrini Nadi, and inside that the Brahma Nadi, in the Sushumna but it is extant everywhere at the same time. Eventually going down the Amrita Nadi from the Sahasrara to the 'Heart Centre'. Some are born green, some are born ripe, some are ready to fall off the branch, some are still in seed condition. It is the same with liberation or Moksha. I use the word Sakti with some license for Sakti can only be felt on the day of Moksha, it is Prana that we feel. Just my observations that's all. Love and Om Namah Sivaya, Tony. ===== http://members.xoom.com/aoclery/sanskritglos.htm ASATHO MA SATH GAMAYA, From the unreal lead me to the real, THAMASO MA JYOTHIR GAMAYA, From darkness, lead me to light, MRITHYOR MA AMRITAM GAMAYA.From death, lead me to immortality. OM, SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI. Om, Peace Peace Peace. Talk to your friends online with Messenger. http://im. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2000 Report Share Posted March 19, 2000 Hi Tony, El Collie's wonderful article on "Kundalini Signs and Symptoms" is found on her own Shared Transformations website, and there are links to it in various other places. In a case like this, it would be enough to just give us the URL: http://members.aol.com/ckress/symptoms.html El's website is the place for anyone who is having problems with K. symptoms. There's good information about where to get help, as well as a mailing list and the "Shared Transformations" newsletter. For a longer and much more detailed exposition... more than you ever wanted to know about Kundalini ))... see Kurt Keutzer's Kundalini-FAQ at: http://aloha.net/~bpeay/kundalini/kundalini-faq.html Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 In a message dated 3/20/00 9:22:45 AM Mountain Standard Time, insight writes: << Thank you for your kind words, Melody. I suspect Im a tad older than others on this chat and can be a bit of a bore - Ive now hauled out 30 yrs of journals from the personal path but Ill try to exercise some self control. >> No, no self control, please! I, too, greatly appreciated your post. To me the waves of kundalini become normalized as a part of life and I forget to marvel at what a wondrous process this is. Your post and others on this thread have reminded me yet again to be grateful. Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 Ive been trying to resist the topic on Kundalini - but Ive been looking through my old journals, kind of taking stock and there it is - -April, 1980. I'll try to be brief. I entered the spiritual path by chance, not with intention or with any knowledge. Like everyone else, just looking for something that was missing from my ordinary western life. I happened upon a British medium living in Canada - and it developed that I myself became a trance medium, I think its now called "channeling." This was my first encounter with someone who seemed to understand the high energy states that seemed to occur naturally since childhood. Eventually, I felt that I wanted to understand more about what was happening, and I could tell from the state of my ordinary life away from the sessions of mediumship, that I was in no shape to be giving others advice. It didnt seem quite right that I could live in a condition of expanded awareness and bliss during "trance" and then return to my daily life that was confused, dysfunctional and full of suffering. So - again by chance, I met a Zen master who became my first teacher (circa 1967). This is because while at a public talk (and I was trying to 'see' what spirit guides were with him) - he looked at me and said, "And we do not need to communicate with each other via ghosts." I was really impressed!!! and embarked upon the Buddhist Path. At this time, I had no real knowledge of this Path, I just wanted to meditate and be like this teacher. I had no real understanding of "ego" or the purpose of Buddhist practice. Years along, I was at zen sesshin, still relentlessly pursuing "enlightenment" - I wasnt too clear what it was, although it promised me freedom from suffering, and besides, I was a good little meditator - although my ordinary life was still unstable, I still hankered after monastaries and such although by this time had a husband studying for a Phd and three small children. So - at sesshin, desperate to make progress before returning to the demands of domestic routine, I found a book in the zendo library that described how a zen master had been meditating when he reached kensho. I took myself off to sit long hours by myself - do or die - as the saying goes. (I have to add that while I knew about yoga and kundalini practice having read all Gopi Krishnas books, I had decided that because of my mediumship background, I was probably too unstable for this and where to find a good teacher? At that time not many of us were serious meditators and besides, as much as I wanted to find "enlightenment" I also wanted all the things the world seemed to offer. I digress here, Ive had everything and its a mess of potage) So - relentlessly imitating the zen master and his meditation I breathed my way up body as bamboo tube with one-pointed concentration (the full details I won't include as youll all rush off to try it) Suddenly I found myself in a immense void of silence and timelessness - and then a huge explosion - energy running up my spine and through the body, no more head at all, no more body, hyperventilating and so on. For the next few days I was in a state of shock and hyper awareness, still with no body. I had lost all sense of boundaries, could actually feel "myself" looking out of the eye of the bird in the tree, out of the tree itself, people around me were speaking with "my" voice - we were all swimming together in a sea of energy. And there was no relief from the relentless coursing of energy through the body por what used to be the body. When I closed "my" eyes - I could still see everything around me exactly the same as with eyes open - no sleep for days and so on. (It occurred to me that perhaps one of the reasons the snake is a symbol of kundalini is because it has no eyelids.) Thinking myself soon to die,I took myself off, sobbing, to the Roshi (I still remember this vividly, it was lunch and he was eating noodles with gusto) - who seemed to give me a great whack in the belly with his mind and then he sent me off home. On the way I had a hamburger, thinking this might lesson the energy somewhat - it didnt. At home I had to carry on pretending to be "normal" - and at the same time feeling quite desperate and frightened. Then, thinking I knew what was going on and needing help - I got five books out of the library on kundalini and wrote to the authors. And while the psychologist working with Gopi Krishna invited me to come along to india - I had three small children and PTA meetings to attend to. So, a letter arrived from the student of a Kundalini Guru - incredibly kind (she recognized my description of what I was suffering and thank goodness therefore I wasnt alone and crazy) - and off I went to their ashram. Where for the next year or so - going back and forth, receiving shaktipat to unlock the blocks that were causing so much pain in my unprepared body, learning to take care of myself, even learning about unconditional love -chanting my heart out, doing yoga, things were sorted out somewhat - the violent energy was turned into a mellow streaming that I could both tolerate and learn from and still carry on in ordinary reality with my family. I never did reclaim the body completely but got used to that and also learned not to say too much about it to the wrong people. After spending time with the yogis and learning the full extent of what yoga really is, most especially gaining an appreciation of Ram Dass's statement that "if you want to awaken the kundalini, serve others," I returned to learning the buddhist path with a renewed sense of humility and my own limitations. (Kundalini yoga too "hot" for me, I needed cool practice.) But, there was massive depression (this has taken years to work itself out), and aloneness from being "all there is" in a brilliant but indifferent cosmos yet not also free from the habits of self/ego. I would say leave the kundalini alone unless you have a close, intimate relationship with a very good and trustworthy realized teacher, maturity in understanding your path, a really stable life where you understand diet and your body is really fit, a place to practice where you have no obligations such as work and family and stay away from drugs and psychotherapists. After I returned "back into the world" and still thinking that perhaps I WAS crazy,the only companionship I could find was with schizophrenics and RD Laing and yet I didnt belong there either. Id also say look at your motivation for why you are on a spiritual path - Id say lots of things but I have the feeling that karma unfolds as it will. I was fortunate in finding a teacher who saved my life in every sense of the word - and his teacher was alive and present at that time - a very great realized and compassionate guru. "High" states continue to come and go - they can be a nuisance but one just sees them as passing phenomenon - the teachers I have see them for what they are, a hindrance and not important and one eventually reaches calm and peace, ever unfolding insight and freedom. And, Im still working with the basics - clinging, greed, aversion and delusion. I think the main lesson out of many lessons I learned from this experience is that "I" will not "achieve enlightenment" until we all discover it together. I found a nice quote from John Blofield - again - written in my journal April, 1980....from the Taoist masters. "The secret is to sense when actions are timely and in accord with the "Way", or otherwise. It is a matter of learning to be.....Becoming Immortal has nothing to do with physical changes, it means coming to know something, realizing something - an experience that can happen in a flash. Ah, how precious that knowledge. When it first strikes you, you want to sing and dance or you nearly die laughing. For suddenly you recognize that nothing in the world can ever hurt you. Though thunder roar and torrents boil, though serpents hiss and arrows rain...you meet them all laughing. You see your body born as a flower to bloom, to give off fragrance and to wither and die. It is well that things die when worn out and no loss at all, for life is immortal and never grows with the birth of things nor diminishes with their death. A worn out object discarded, life having ample material to supply the loss. Now do you see? You cannot die because you have never lived. Life cannot die, because it has no beginning and no end. Becoming an Immortal just means ceasing to identify yourself with shadows and recognize that the only "you" is everlasting life." Take care of yourself, Joyce ------ GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! http://click./1/937/5/_/520931/_/953513978/ ------ // All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription between digest and normal mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 Thank you for your kind words, Melody. I suspect Im a tad older than others on this chat and can be a bit of a bore - Ive now hauled out 30 yrs of journals from the personal path but Ill try to exercise some self control. Joyce > "Melody" <melody > > > >> "The secret is to sense when actions are timely and in accord with the >> "Way", or otherwise. It is a matter of learning to be.....Becoming Immortal >> has nothing to do with physical changes, it means coming to know something, >> realizing something - an experience that can happen in a flash. Ah, how >> precious that knowledge. When it first strikes you, you want to sing and >> dance or you nearly die laughing. For suddenly you recognize that nothing >> in the world can ever hurt you. Though thunder roar and torrents boil, >> though serpents hiss and arrows rain...you meet them all laughing. You see >> your body born as a flower to bloom, to give off fragrance and to wither and >> die. It is well that things die when worn out and no loss at all, for life >> is immortal and never grows with the birth of things nor diminishes with >> their death. A worn out object discarded, life having ample material to >> supply the loss. Now do you see? You cannot die because you have never >> lived. Life cannot die, because it has no beginning and no end. Becoming >> an Immortal just means ceasing to identify yourself with shadows and >> recognize that the only "you" is everlasting life." >> >> Take care of yourself, >> >> Joyce >> > > What an extraordinary sharing, Joyce. Simply extraordinary. > > Thank you very much for it. > > [i think I will read this again!] > > love, > Melody > > > ------ > PERFORM CPR ON YOUR APR! > Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as > 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. > Apply NOW! > http://click./1/2121/5/_/520931/_/953567834/ > ------ > > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from > the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 Hi Jill, Many thanks for your kind words and patience for wading through. Isnt it grand to discover one isnt crazy? And how amazingly wonderful to be a human being on the path with others. Love Joyce > Jill Eggers <eggers > > Wow, thank you Joyce for your amazing post. > My own experience resonates very much with yours--and you have written it > so clearly and beautifully. I really appreciate your taking the time to > put this into words. > > Love, > > Jill > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 > "The secret is to sense when actions are timely and in accord with the > "Way", or otherwise. It is a matter of learning to be.....Becoming Immortal > has nothing to do with physical changes, it means coming to know something, > realizing something - an experience that can happen in a flash. Ah, how > precious that knowledge. When it first strikes you, you want to sing and > dance or you nearly die laughing. For suddenly you recognize that nothing > in the world can ever hurt you. Though thunder roar and torrents boil, > though serpents hiss and arrows rain...you meet them all laughing. You see > your body born as a flower to bloom, to give off fragrance and to wither and > die. It is well that things die when worn out and no loss at all, for life > is immortal and never grows with the birth of things nor diminishes with > their death. A worn out object discarded, life having ample material to > supply the loss. Now do you see? You cannot die because you have never > lived. Life cannot die, because it has no beginning and no end. Becoming > an Immortal just means ceasing to identify yourself with shadows and > recognize that the only "you" is everlasting life." > > Take care of yourself, > > Joyce > What an extraordinary sharing, Joyce. Simply extraordinary. Thank you very much for it. [i think I will read this again!] love, Melody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 Wow, thank you Joyce for your amazing post. My own experience resonates very much with yours--and you have written it so clearly and beautifully. I really appreciate your taking the time to put this into words. Love, Jill At 10:37 AM 3/20/00 -0500, you wrote: >"Joyce Short" <insight > > Ive been trying to resist the topic on Kundalini - but Ive been looking >through my old journals, kind of taking stock and there it is - -April, >1980. I'll try to be brief. > > I entered the spiritual path by chance, not with intention or with any >knowledge. Like everyone else, just looking for something that was missing >from my ordinary western life. I happened upon a British medium living in >Canada - and it developed that I myself became a trance medium, I think its >now called "channeling." This was my first encounter with someone who >seemed to understand the high energy states that seemed to occur naturally >since childhood. Eventually, I felt that I wanted to understand more about >what was happening, and I could tell from the state of my ordinary life away >from the sessions of mediumship, that I was in no shape to be giving others >advice. It didnt seem quite right that I could live in a condition of >expanded awareness and bliss during "trance" and then return to my daily >life that was confused, dysfunctional and full of suffering. > > So - again by chance, I met a Zen master who became my first teacher >(circa 1967). This is because while at a public talk (and I was trying to >'see' what spirit guides were with him) - he looked at me and said, "And we >do not need to communicate with each other via ghosts." I was really >impressed!!! and embarked upon the Buddhist Path. At this time, I had no >real knowledge of this Path, I just wanted to meditate and be like this >teacher. I had no real understanding of "ego" or the purpose of Buddhist >practice. > > Years along, I was at zen sesshin, still relentlessly pursuing >"enlightenment" - I wasnt too clear what it was, although it promised me >freedom from suffering, and besides, I was a good little meditator - >although my ordinary life was still unstable, I still hankered after >monastaries and such although by this time had a husband studying for a Phd >and three small children. > > So - at sesshin, desperate to make progress before returning to the >demands of domestic routine, I found a book in the zendo library that >described how a zen master had been meditating when he reached kensho. I >took myself off to sit long hours by myself - do or die - as the saying >goes. (I have to add that while I knew about yoga and kundalini practice >having read all Gopi Krishnas books, I had decided that because of my >mediumship background, I was probably too unstable for this and where to >find a good teacher? At that time not many of us were serious meditators and >besides, as much as I wanted to find "enlightenment" I also wanted all the >things the world seemed to offer. I digress here, Ive had everything and its >a mess of potage) > > So - relentlessly imitating the zen master and his meditation I breathed >my way up body as bamboo tube with one-pointed concentration (the full >details I won't include as youll all rush off to try it) Suddenly I found >myself in a immense void of silence and timelessness - and then a huge >explosion - energy running up my spine and through the body, no more head >at all, no more body, hyperventilating and so on. For the next few days I >was in a state of shock and hyper awareness, still with no body. I had lost >all sense of boundaries, could actually feel "myself" looking out of the eye >of the bird in the tree, out of the tree itself, people around me were >speaking with "my" voice - we were all swimming together in a sea of energy. >And there was no relief from the relentless coursing of energy through the >body por what used to be the body. When I closed "my" eyes - I could still >see everything around me exactly the same as with eyes open - no sleep for >days and so on. (It occurred to me that perhaps one of the reasons the snake >is a symbol of kundalini is because it has no eyelids.) > > Thinking myself soon to die,I took myself off, sobbing, to the Roshi (I >still remember this vividly, it was lunch and he was eating noodles with >gusto) - who seemed to give me a great whack in the belly with his mind and >then he sent me off home. On the way I had a hamburger, thinking this might >lesson the energy somewhat - it didnt. At home I had to carry on pretending >to be "normal" - and at the same time feeling quite desperate and >frightened. Then, thinking I knew what was going on and needing help - I >got five books out of the library on kundalini and wrote to the authors. >And while the psychologist working with Gopi Krishna invited me to come >along to india - I had three small children and PTA meetings to attend to. >So, a letter arrived from the student of a Kundalini Guru - incredibly kind >(she recognized my description of what I was suffering and thank goodness >therefore I wasnt alone and crazy) - and off I went to their ashram. Where >for the next year or so - going back and forth, receiving shaktipat to >unlock the blocks that were causing so much pain in my unprepared body, >learning to take care of myself, even learning about unconditional love >-chanting my heart out, doing yoga, things were sorted out somewhat - the >violent energy was turned into a mellow streaming that I could both tolerate >and learn from and still carry on in ordinary reality with my family. I >never did reclaim the body completely but got used to that and also learned >not to say too much about it to the wrong people. > > After spending time with the yogis and learning the full extent of what >yoga really is, most especially gaining an appreciation of Ram Dass's >statement that "if you want to awaken the kundalini, serve others," I >returned to learning the buddhist path with a renewed sense of humility and >my own limitations. (Kundalini yoga too "hot" for me, I needed cool >practice.) But, there was massive depression (this has taken years to work >itself out), and aloneness from being "all there is" in a brilliant but >indifferent cosmos yet not also free from the habits of self/ego. > > I would say leave the kundalini alone unless you have a close, intimate >relationship with a very good and trustworthy realized teacher, maturity in >understanding your path, a really stable life where you understand diet and >your body is really fit, a place to practice where you have no obligations >such as work and family and stay away from drugs and psychotherapists. >After I returned "back into the world" and still thinking that perhaps I WAS >crazy,the only companionship I could find was with schizophrenics and RD >Laing and yet I didnt belong there either. Id also say look at your >motivation for why you are on a spiritual path - Id say lots of things but I >have the feeling that karma unfolds as it will. I was fortunate in finding >a teacher who saved my life in every sense of the word - and his teacher was >alive and present at that time - a very great realized and compassionate >guru. > > "High" states continue to come and go - they can be a nuisance but one >just sees them as passing phenomenon - the teachers I have see them for what >they are, a hindrance and not important and one eventually reaches calm and >peace, ever unfolding insight and freedom. And, Im still working with the >basics - clinging, greed, aversion and delusion. I think the main lesson >out of many lessons I learned from this experience is that "I" will not >"achieve enlightenment" until we all discover it together. > >I found a nice quote from John Blofield - again - written in my journal >April, 1980....from the Taoist masters. > > "The secret is to sense when actions are timely and in accord with the >"Way", or otherwise. It is a matter of learning to be.....Becoming Immortal >has nothing to do with physical changes, it means coming to know something, >realizing something - an experience that can happen in a flash. Ah, how >precious that knowledge. When it first strikes you, you want to sing and >dance or you nearly die laughing. For suddenly you recognize that nothing >in the world can ever hurt you. Though thunder roar and torrents boil, >though serpents hiss and arrows rain...you meet them all laughing. You see >your body born as a flower to bloom, to give off fragrance and to wither and >die. It is well that things die when worn out and no loss at all, for life >is immortal and never grows with the birth of things nor diminishes with >their death. A worn out object discarded, life having ample material to >supply the loss. Now do you see? You cannot die because you have never >lived. Life cannot die, because it has no beginning and no end. Becoming >an Immortal just means ceasing to identify yourself with shadows and >recognize that the only "you" is everlasting life." > > Take care of yourself, > > Joyce > > > > > > > > > > > >------ >GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% >Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! >http://click./1/937/5/_/520931/_/953513978/ >------ > >// > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside >back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than >the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of >Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is >Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality >of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, >spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to >a. > >To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from >the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your >subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > >------ >DON'T HATE YOUR RATE! >Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as >0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. >Apply NOW! >http://click./1/2120/5/_/520931/_/953567084/ >------ > >// > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the > ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. > Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where > the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true > devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from > within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > >To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from the > menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 Hi Joyce, Thank you for sharing your amazing story. You were fortunate to find the teachers you needed... but they would not have happened to you if not for your will to persist on your path and find the help and techniques you needed. For you I will peace at the center of turmoil the stillness of the hurricane's eye a rock against churning waves Let the winds howl let the waves roll the center is still there the rock is always Love and blessings, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2001 Report Share Posted October 15, 2001 Here is a great oldie, but goodie. Since Joyce is back with us at present, she can answer anyone's questions if she likes. Glo - Joyce Short Monday, March 20, 2000 11:37 AM FW: Kundalini some thoughts,experiences. "Joyce Short" Ive been trying to resist the topic on Kundalini - but Ive been lookingthrough my old journals, kind of taking stock and there it is - -April,1980. I'll try to be brief. I entered the spiritual path by chance, not with intention or with anyknowledge. Like everyone else, just looking for something that was missingfrom my ordinary western life. I happened upon a British medium living inCanada - and it developed that I myself became a trance medium, I think itsnow called "channeling." This was my first encounter with someone whoseemed to understand the high energy states that seemed to occur naturallysince childhood. Eventually, I felt that I wanted to understand more aboutwhat was happening, and I could tell from the state of my ordinary life awayfrom the sessions of mediumship, that I was in no shape to be giving othersadvice. It didnt seem quite right that I could live in a condition ofexpanded awareness and bliss during "trance" and then return to my dailylife that was confused, dysfunctional and full of suffering. So - again by chance, I met a Zen master who became my first teacher(circa 1967). This is because while at a public talk (and I was trying to'see' what spirit guides were with him) - he looked at me and said, "And wedo not need to communicate with each other via ghosts." I was reallyimpressed!!! and embarked upon the Buddhist Path. At this time, I had noreal knowledge of this Path, I just wanted to meditate and be like thisteacher. I had no real understanding of "ego" or the purpose of Buddhistpractice. Years along, I was at zen sesshin, still relentlessly pursuing"enlightenment" - I wasnt too clear what it was, although it promised mefreedom from suffering, and besides, I was a good little meditator -although my ordinary life was still unstable, I still hankered aftermonastaries and such although by this time had a husband studying for a Phdand three small children. So - at sesshin, desperate to make progress before returning to thedemands of domestic routine, I found a book in the zendo library thatdescribed how a zen master had been meditating when he reached kensho. Itook myself off to sit long hours by myself - do or die - as the sayinggoes. (I have to add that while I knew about yoga and kundalini practicehaving read all Gopi Krishnas books, I had decided that because of mymediumship background, I was probably too unstable for this and where tofind a good teacher? At that time not many of us were serious meditators andbesides, as much as I wanted to find "enlightenment" I also wanted all thethings the world seemed to offer. I digress here, Ive had everything and itsa mess of potage) So - relentlessly imitating the zen master and his meditation I breathedmy way up body as bamboo tube with one-pointed concentration (the fulldetails I won't include as youll all rush off to try it) Suddenly I foundmyself in a immense void of silence and timelessness - and then a hugeexplosion - energy running up my spine and through the body, no more headat all, no more body, hyperventilating and so on. For the next few days Iwas in a state of shock and hyper awareness, still with no body. I had lostall sense of boundaries, could actually feel "myself" looking out of the eyeof the bird in the tree, out of the tree itself, people around me werespeaking with "my" voice - we were all swimming together in a sea of energy.And there was no relief from the relentless coursing of energy through thebody por what used to be the body. When I closed "my" eyes - I could stillsee everything around me exactly the same as with eyes open - no sleep fordays and so on. (It occurred to me that perhaps one of the reasons the snakeis a symbol of kundalini is because it has no eyelids.) Thinking myself soon to die,I took myself off, sobbing, to the Roshi (Istill remember this vividly, it was lunch and he was eating noodles withgusto) - who seemed to give me a great whack in the belly with his mind andthen he sent me off home. On the way I had a hamburger, thinking this mightlesson the energy somewhat - it didnt. At home I had to carry on pretendingto be "normal" - and at the same time feeling quite desperate andfrightened. Then, thinking I knew what was going on and needing help - Igot five books out of the library on kundalini and wrote to the authors.And while the psychologist working with Gopi Krishna invited me to comealong to india - I had three small children and PTA meetings to attend to.So, a letter arrived from the student of a Kundalini Guru - incredibly kind(she recognized my description of what I was suffering and thank goodnesstherefore I wasnt alone and crazy) - and off I went to their ashram. Wherefor the next year or so - going back and forth, receiving shaktipat tounlock the blocks that were causing so much pain in my unprepared body,learning to take care of myself, even learning about unconditional love-chanting my heart out, doing yoga, things were sorted out somewhat - theviolent energy was turned into a mellow streaming that I could both tolerateand learn from and still carry on in ordinary reality with my family. Inever did reclaim the body completely but got used to that and also learnednot to say too much about it to the wrong people. After spending time with the yogis and learning the full extent of whatyoga really is, most especially gaining an appreciation of Ram Dass'sstatement that "if you want to awaken the kundalini, serve others," Ireturned to learning the buddhist path with a renewed sense of humility andmy own limitations. (Kundalini yoga too "hot" for me, I needed coolpractice.) But, there was massive depression (this has taken years to workitself out), and aloneness from being "all there is" in a brilliant butindifferent cosmos yet not also free from the habits of self/ego. I would say leave the kundalini alone unless you have a close, intimaterelationship with a very good and trustworthy realized teacher, maturity inunderstanding your path, a really stable life where you understand diet andyour body is really fit, a place to practice where you have no obligationssuch as work and family and stay away from drugs and psychotherapists.After I returned "back into the world" and still thinking that perhaps I WAScrazy,the only companionship I could find was with schizophrenics and RDLaing and yet I didnt belong there either. Id also say look at yourmotivation for why you are on a spiritual path - Id say lots of things but Ihave the feeling that karma unfolds as it will. I was fortunate in findinga teacher who saved my life in every sense of the word - and his teacher wasalive and present at that time - a very great realized and compassionateguru. "High" states continue to come and go - they can be a nuisance but onejust sees them as passing phenomenon - the teachers I have see them for whatthey are, a hindrance and not important and one eventually reaches calm andpeace, ever unfolding insight and freedom. And, Im still working with thebasics - clinging, greed, aversion and delusion. I think the main lessonout of many lessons I learned from this experience is that "I" will not"achieve enlightenment" until we all discover it together.I found a nice quote from John Blofield - again - written in my journalApril, 1980....from the Taoist masters. "The secret is to sense when actions are timely and in accord with the"Way", or otherwise. It is a matter of learning to be.....Becoming Immortalhas nothing to do with physical changes, it means coming to know something,realizing something - an experience that can happen in a flash. Ah, howprecious that knowledge. When it first strikes you, you want to sing anddance or you nearly die laughing. For suddenly you recognize that nothingin the world can ever hurt you. Though thunder roar and torrents boil,though serpents hiss and arrows rain...you meet them all laughing. You seeyour body born as a flower to bloom, to give off fragrance and to wither anddie. It is well that things die when worn out and no loss at all, for lifeis immortal and never grows with the birth of things nor diminishes withtheir death. A worn out object discarded, life having ample material tosupply the loss. Now do you see? You cannot die because you have neverlived. Life cannot die, because it has no beginning and no end. Becomingan Immortal just means ceasing to identify yourself with shadows andrecognize that the only "you" is everlasting life." Take care of yourself, Joyce------GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0%Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!http://click./1/937/5/_/520931/_/953513978/------//All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subsideback into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different thanthe ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature ofAwareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It isHome. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finalityof Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all toa.To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at www., and select the User Center link fromthe menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you change yoursubscription between digest and normal mode.------DON'T HATE YOUR RATE!Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.Apply NOW!http://click./1/2120/5/_/520931/_/953567084/------// All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription between digest and normal mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2001 Report Share Posted October 16, 2001 Glo, Joyce, Harsha & Friends, Well, Glo. As usual you seem to be right on message, at least as far as my suggestions for the satsangh. Joyce's story is a perfect choice, not only because of it's own intrinsic literary and spiritual value, but also because it introduces one of the subjects that I would consider of enduring value for sustained attention on this list. Many, if not all of us, have been on a serious path for a long time, often, decades. It seems only natural to me, particularly in terms of Kundalini awakening, to discuss our current thoughts on what K awakening really is, how it functions, whether there even is such a thing as a "cool" path once intense k awakening has occured. The K Lists, in so far as I've been able to sample them, concentrate much more on exotic experiences and how to cope with them, value them, etc. For so many contributors, some exotic but peripheral agenda of k "exploitation", such as Joyce's former experience of channeling, is the real topic of interest. for those of us who experience K in the nondual perspective, our original experiences contrasted with our current feelings or understanding should have a unique value. Joyce is clear in her presentation that she doesn't think K awakening is desirable for everyone, while conceding that our thoughts about it probably don't have any effect on it's emergence in our lives. If I understand her properly, I tend to agree with her. In Siddha Yoga, Baba Muktananda's version of K yoga, the great gems of insight were often merely hinted at, or at best, openly discussed on only a few select occasions. One of the most important of those insights was Baba's admission that in giving us Shaktipat the Guru, as the physical representative of the living Shakti(God or Kali) basically translated our karmic debt from undirected and generalized Maya to the more specialized (but possibly even more confusing) Guru Maya. This is just another way of saying that our negative karma will now manifest in terms that are conveniently covered by the equally negative descriptions of the effects of K awakening. Joyce's description of "near insanity, etc." is an apt expression of one type of the kind of experience I'm discussing. One of the things that I've managed to glean from the lists that I've been reading is that formal Depression is hundreds of times more commonplace among "K people" as among the general population. One almost gets the impression at times that almost everyone who's awakening could be described as "intense"(which, in case any of you don't know it, is not always the case) has gone through a major experience of clinical depression. Of course, many of us have brought that condition with us from childhood, but I'm not at all sure that that fact invalidates my point, if you can accept the notion that K awakening and subsequent experience is as much a matter of personal "prarabda" karma as any childhood experiences. the implication here would be that K awakening or initiation goes hand in hand with the circumstances and life experiences that precede it just as it does with those that follow it. Another matter that I think deserves attention from Joyce's narrative is her previous descovery of herself as a "channel". It's my guess that all of us who experience intense and long lasting K awakening were already open to "subtle" experience even if it were not "surfaced" or expressed prior to our K initiation. This is just one theory that has emerged or naturally suggested itself from my own K experiences. I think it would be good for us to express more of 1/ our actual K experiences and 2/whatever interpretations or theories we've been able to extract from them. In answer to your previous question, Glo, about a subject that I think deserves a sustained treatment here, K experience described and treated in these 2 ways, both as personal historical events and also as subsequent interpretation, would be an excellent choice for me. Enough for now. It will be interesting to see if enough of you agree with me to make this a viable jumping off place for a sustained discussion. yours in the bonds, eric ps. I've got a good deal more to say about Joyce's K experiences in the light of my own in a compare and contrast mode, but I think I've said enough for awhile. , "Gloria Lee" <glee@c...> wrote: > Here is a great oldie, but goodie. > Since Joyce is back with us at present, > she can answer anyone's questions if she likes. > Glo > > - > Joyce Short > > Monday, March 20, 2000 11:37 AM > FW: Kundalini some thoughts,experiences. > > > "Joyce Short" > > Ive been trying to resist the topic on Kundalini - but Ive been looking > through my old journals, kind of taking stock and there it is - - April, > 1980. I'll try to be brief. > > I entered the spiritual path by chance, not with intention or with any > knowledge. Like everyone else, just looking for something that was missing > from my ordinary western life. I happened upon a British medium living in > Canada - and it developed that I myself became a trance medium, I think its > now called "channeling." This was my first encounter with someone who > seemed to understand the high energy states that seemed to occur naturally > since childhood. Eventually, I felt that I wanted to understand more about > what was happening, and I could tell from the state of my ordinary life away > from the sessions of mediumship, that I was in no shape to be giving others > advice. It didnt seem quite right that I could live in a condition of > expanded awareness and bliss during "trance" and then return to my daily > life that was confused, dysfunctional and full of suffering. > > So - again by chance, I met a Zen master who became my first teacher > (circa 1967). This is because while at a public talk (and I was trying to > 'see' what spirit guides were with him) - he looked at me and said, "And we > do not need to communicate with each other via ghosts." I was really > impressed!!! and embarked upon the Buddhist Path. At this time, I had no > real knowledge of this Path, I just wanted to meditate and be like this > teacher. I had no real understanding of "ego" or the purpose of Buddhist > practice. > > Years along, I was at zen sesshin, still relentlessly pursuing > "enlightenment" - I wasnt too clear what it was, although it promised me > freedom from suffering, and besides, I was a good little meditator - > although my ordinary life was still unstable, I still hankered after > monastaries and such although by this time had a husband studying for a Phd > and three small children. > > So - at sesshin, desperate to make progress before returning to the > demands of domestic routine, I found a book in the zendo library that > described how a zen master had been meditating when he reached kensho. I > took myself off to sit long hours by myself - do or die - as the saying > goes. (I have to add that while I knew about yoga and kundalini practice > having read all Gopi Krishnas books, I had decided that because of my > mediumship background, I was probably too unstable for this and where to > find a good teacher? At that time not many of us were serious meditators and > besides, as much as I wanted to find "enlightenment" I also wanted all the > things the world seemed to offer. I digress here, Ive had everything and its > a mess of potage) > > So - relentlessly imitating the zen master and his meditation I breathed > my way up body as bamboo tube with one-pointed concentration (the full > details I won't include as youll all rush off to try it) Suddenly I found > myself in a immense void of silence and timelessness - and then a huge > explosion - energy running up my spine and through the body, no more head > at all, no more body, hyperventilating and so on. For the next few days I > was in a state of shock and hyper awareness, still with no body. I had lost > all sense of boundaries, could actually feel "myself" looking out of the eye > of the bird in the tree, out of the tree itself, people around me were > speaking with "my" voice - we were all swimming together in a sea of energy. > And there was no relief from the relentless coursing of energy through the > body por what used to be the body. When I closed "my" eyes - I could still > see everything around me exactly the same as with eyes open - no sleep for > days and so on. (It occurred to me that perhaps one of the reasons the snake > is a symbol of kundalini is because it has no eyelids.) > > Thinking myself soon to die,I took myself off, sobbing, to the Roshi (I > still remember this vividly, it was lunch and he was eating noodles with > gusto) - who seemed to give me a great whack in the belly with his mind and > then he sent me off home. On the way I had a hamburger, thinking this might > lesson the energy somewhat - it didnt. At home I had to carry on pretending > to be "normal" - and at the same time feeling quite desperate and > frightened. Then, thinking I knew what was going on and needing help - I > got five books out of the library on kundalini and wrote to the authors. > And while the psychologist working with Gopi Krishna invited me to come > along to india - I had three small children and PTA meetings to attend to. > So, a letter arrived from the student of a Kundalini Guru - incredibly kind > (she recognized my description of what I was suffering and thank goodness > therefore I wasnt alone and crazy) - and off I went to their ashram. Where > for the next year or so - going back and forth, receiving shaktipat to > unlock the blocks that were causing so much pain in my unprepared body, > learning to take care of myself, even learning about unconditional love > -chanting my heart out, doing yoga, things were sorted out somewhat - the > violent energy was turned into a mellow streaming that I could both tolerate > and learn from and still carry on in ordinary reality with my family. I > never did reclaim the body completely but got used to that and also learned > not to say too much about it to the wrong people. > > After spending time with the yogis and learning the full extent of what > yoga really is, most especially gaining an appreciation of Ram Dass's > statement that "if you want to awaken the kundalini, serve others," I > returned to learning the buddhist path with a renewed sense of humility and > my own limitations. (Kundalini yoga too "hot" for me, I needed cool > practice.) But, there was massive depression (this has taken years to work > itself out), and aloneness from being "all there is" in a brilliant but > indifferent cosmos yet not also free from the habits of self/ego. > > I would say leave the kundalini alone unless you have a close, intimate > relationship with a very good and trustworthy realized teacher, maturity in > understanding your path, a really stable life where you understand diet and > your body is really fit, a place to practice where you have no obligations > such as work and family and stay away from drugs and psychotherapists. > After I returned "back into the world" and still thinking that perhaps I WAS > crazy,the only companionship I could find was with schizophrenics and RD > Laing and yet I didnt belong there either. Id also say look at your > motivation for why you are on a spiritual path - Id say lots of things but I > have the feeling that karma unfolds as it will. I was fortunate in finding > a teacher who saved my life in every sense of the word - and his teacher was > alive and present at that time - a very great realized and compassionate > guru. > > "High" states continue to come and go - they can be a nuisance but one > just sees them as passing phenomenon - the teachers I have see them for what > they are, a hindrance and not important and one eventually reaches calm and > peace, ever unfolding insight and freedom. And, Im still working with the > basics - clinging, greed, aversion and delusion. I think the main lesson > out of many lessons I learned from this experience is that "I" will not > "achieve enlightenment" until we all discover it together. > > I found a nice quote from John Blofield - again - written in my journal > April, 1980....from the Taoist masters. > > "The secret is to sense when actions are timely and in accord with the > "Way", or otherwise. It is a matter of learning to be.....Becoming Immortal > has nothing to do with physical changes, it means coming to know something, > realizing something - an experience that can happen in a flash. Ah, how > precious that knowledge. When it first strikes you, you want to sing and > dance or you nearly die laughing. For suddenly you recognize that nothing > in the world can ever hurt you. Though thunder roar and torrents boil, > though serpents hiss and arrows rain...you meet them all laughing. You see > your body born as a flower to bloom, to give off fragrance and to wither and > die. It is well that things die when worn out and no loss at all, for life > is immortal and never grows with the birth of things nor diminishes with > their death. A worn out object discarded, life having ample material to > supply the loss. Now do you see? You cannot die because you have never > lived. Life cannot die, because it has no beginning and no end. Becoming > an Immortal just means ceasing to identify yourself with shadows and > recognize that the only "you" is everlasting life." > > Take care of yourself, > > Joyce > > > > > -- ---- > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% > Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! > http://click./1/937/5/_/520931/_/953513978/ > -- ---- > > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self- Knowledge, > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to > a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from > the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > > -- ---- > DON'T HATE YOUR RATE! > Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as > 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. > Apply NOW! > http://click./1/2120/5/_/520931/_/953567084/ > -- ---- > > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription > between digest and normal mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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