Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 Joyce: > >I had lost > >all sense of boundaries, could actually feel "myself" looking out of the > eye > >of the bird in the tree, out of the tree itself, people around me were > >speaking with "my" voice - we were all swimming together in a sea of energy. Amanda: > With time > this all seeing-eye does not need to > feel overwhelming or fearful. However, the loss > of individuality is not acceptable until... > it is accepted. > There is a shared being somewhere. Thanks Amanda & Dharma for more thoughts on kundalini - always makes for an interesting subject. And thank you Joyce for taking the time getting your journals out for us -- wonderful reading all about your experience(s)! It was also beautiful reading about how Moller was inspired by a word said by Dan. I had a couple of different/same experiences regarding individuality, that have still boggled my mind. The first during my very active kundalini, I was on a road trip, and all of a sudden realized everyone was me! No real "I" lost -- but more/all of "me" found. For the first time in my life, I could walk into a store/shop/anywhere, and see there was no one to be afraid of... because everyone was me! You couldn't help but be kind to each and every person. It was a wonderful feeling and I savored every minute of it. After my kundalini (exploded)(?), a most frightening thing occurred. I lost all sense of who "I" was -- a complete loss of personality -- I didn't know if I was my mom, my daughter, you, you, or you. It was like the opposite of the previous occurrance. I could have been anyone... and I didn't know who *I* was any longer! In the previous experience, I still knew I was me. This one sent me over the edge, which was the beginning of many frightening occurrances that took me 2 years to heal from. Many talk here of losing the sense of "I" as a *plus*, but I have to say that this (latter experience) is one thing I'm not sure I would ever want to experience again. Maybe had I been more knowledgeable at the time... or had someone to walk me through, telling me what was occurring, my whole experience of it would have been different. Had I not got into fear, what would have occurred, if anything? Just another beautiful experience? When you speak of losing the "I", are we talking in the sense of 'everyone is me', or more of a loss of personality, who *I* am?' ...or is there something else?? Just wondering... Love, xxxtg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 Dear list, There are many experiences with Kundalini, some good and some bad. I keep thinking... there are a few aspects of the process Kundalini brings to the fore not many ppl are consciosuly aware of... so thought I'd make a few comments before this topic grows old... or flaming hot depending on... ) Lots of ppl won't like what "I" have to say, but I'm going to say it anyways. Sorry for the long blather, ppl. On Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:37:29 Joyce Short wrote: >I had lost >all sense of boundaries, could actually feel "myself" looking out of the eye >of the bird in the tree, out of the tree itself, people around me were >speaking with "my" voice - we were all swimming together in a sea of energy. With time this all seeing-eye does not need to feel overwhelming or fearful. However, the loss of individuality is not acceptable until... it is accepted. There is a shared being somewhere. Some biology: >(It occurred to me that perhaps one of the reasons the snake >is a symbol of kundalini is because it has no eyelids.) Many species of snake actually have two sets of eyelids, one closing horiziontally, the other vertically, with the inner lid called the nictitating membrane. Some snakes can keep one eyelid closed as protection against sand and dust, while keeping the outer open. >most especially gaining an appreciation of Ram Dass's >statement that "if you want to awaken the kundalini, serve others," There are many paths... with and without Kundalini. >I >returned to learning the buddhist path with a renewed sense of humility and >my own limitations. (Kundalini yoga too "hot" for me, I needed cool >practice.) One such type of cooling down watery practice are certain forms of tai chi. It is a flowing, easy and mild form of exercise and developing insights. Another form, more hot and very aimed at increasing the prana in the practitioner's body is Chinese martial arts such as Kung-fu. A lot of the exercises are specifically aimed at increasing prana as they are in one way pranayama exercises done while moving the sacral area vigorously through kicks. > I would say leave the kundalini alone unless you have a close, intimate >relationship with a very good and trustworthy realized teacher, maturity in >understanding your path, a really stable life where you understand diet and >your body is really fit, a place to practice where you have no obligations >such as work and family And when is that ? Kundalini chooses whom to leave alone or not. Who knows what ways it brings individuals closer to itself. However, I do agree with you that a fit body and a somewhat cleaned up life may make for an easier process. >I was fortunate in finding >a teacher who saved my life in every sense of >the word Here's what I really wanted to say about this. Georg Feuerstein in his short and lucid overview of Indian tantric traditions, "Tantra the path of ecstacy" (an excellent book, btw, I do recommend it) mentions that some tantric adepts in India smear themselves with ashes after having received initiation and that the central channel is also called The Cremation Ground because the Kundalini process as well as the spiritual process, in many ways copies the process of death. My personal experience is that this is pretty much true. The Kundalini process is about giving up the ego, the notions that I am this profession, I am this person, I am this gender, and dissolve it into the base consciousness that all carry within themselves. So there must be a giving up of many things, external and internal. This feels for the unprepared ego very much like death and also for the somewhat prepared ego like death while being alive as well. There is a dissolution process and it seems to me to depend on the starting point, the external personality itself, what it thinks it wants. However, many ppl mention that Kundalini is a self repairing process and this seems to me to be very much true as well. As Greg mentioned, to become nothing you first have to become something. Nevertheless, there is one way... the will to die can be harnessed the same as the will to live, these two seemingly opposing forces can be seen to originate from the same place and also be set to (as Bernadette Roberts mentions in her book) turn back onto itself into a process giving life beyond "normal" concepts. For me at least, the Kundalini process means letting go, especially of the fear of annihilation. It is not always easy, but it is there. In one way, the energy can pull you into a silent corner and from there, you can watch many interesting things about the inner emotional life... to me this was the start of learning how to meditate... in a natural way. The process is a teacher, it is as Dharma has mentioned been regarded as pure consciousness and the Self by many. It has also been a called a raising of the vibrations of the entire bodies of the individual. Some things must be left behind. In many ways, as time goes by, more and more will be revealed of the Self, either through the play of Maya or the dance of Shiva (and it is the individual's choice what to consider the single things as). It is like a screen hiding the Self from the individual consciousness gliding to the side to let more light in, through the central channel. Love, Amanda. Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 Well, I guess I have to respond by saying that what I posted in its limited form was only general and personal and not posted as any kind of authority on the Kundalini, fortunately most will have grasped this. Of course, in time nothing is overwhelming or fearful. I have spent years observing what the "kundalini" is for me - this information only relevent for myself so no point in posting long posts where it probably wouldn't assist others. I have no doubt at all that it is possible to make profound progress without bothering about Kundalini etc. I could no more argue or debate anothers subjective meditative experience on their path than I could make comment on their sex life. Its theirs, it is what happened to them, they make of it what they will, their expression is interesting and sometimes quite a lot more, it is poetry and song - not science. But, when we hear of others experiences, what they think they did correctly, what mistakes they think they made, it can be useful to apply this wisdom. It isnt a matter of good or bad. Ok, wrong about the snake, if it matters at all. This was just me casting about trying to understand my experience and articulate it. But, it would have been interesting to me to hear of your experience with this, Amanda, in your own words. And I do know what all the books say, I read them all to try to make sense of things. There still does remain the uniqueness of experience that one just doesnt find in the books, including Bernadette Roberts in "No Self." I say quite sincerely that I still know absolutely nothing. When I read all the books Im not even so certain I understand what they say even when I think I understand. Tai chi is very nice, so is Chi Kung. Useful but not a path. Ashes and Tantric masters in India are all very well, but I couldnt even tie a sari correctly and didnt make much of a "Gopi". "Life" is the teacher - call it what you will. There is nothing BUT Kundalini - there are as many voices and descriptions about it as there are beings on the planet. And nothing "un" natural about any of it. Kundalini when it is an "it" - is quite dead and boring and just one more thing to cling to in conceptuality. It isnt a matter of coming to final conclusions about anything. Cheers, Joyce > > Dear list, > > There are many experiences with Kundalini, > some good and some bad. > > I keep thinking... there are a few aspects > of the process Kundalini brings to the fore > not many ppl are consciosuly > aware of... so thought I'd make a few comments > before this topic grows old... or flaming > hot depending on... ) > > Lots of ppl won't like what "I" have to say, > but I'm going to say it anyways. > > Sorry for the long blather, ppl. > > On Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:37:29 Joyce Short wrote: > >>I had lost >>all sense of boundaries, could actually feel "myself" looking out of the eye >>of the bird in the tree, out of the tree itself, people around me were >>speaking with "my" voice - we were all swimming together in a sea of energy. > > With time > this all seeing-eye does not need to > feel overwhelming or fearful. However, the loss > of individuality is not acceptable until... > it is accepted. > There is a shared being somewhere. > > Some biology: >>(It occurred to me that perhaps one of the reasons the snake >>is a symbol of kundalini is because it has no eyelids.) > > Many species of snake actually have two sets of eyelids, one closing > horiziontally, the other > vertically, with the inner lid called the > nictitating membrane. > Some snakes can keep one eyelid > closed as protection against sand and dust, > while keeping the outer open. > >>most especially gaining an appreciation of Ram Dass's >>statement that "if you want to awaken the kundalini, serve others," > > There are many paths... with and without Kundalini. > >>I >>returned to learning the buddhist path with a renewed sense of humility and >>my own limitations. (Kundalini yoga too "hot" for me, I needed cool >>practice.) > > One such type of cooling down watery practice are certain forms of tai chi. > It is a flowing, easy and mild form of exercise > and developing insights. > > Another form, more hot and very aimed at > increasing the prana in the practitioner's > body is Chinese martial arts such as Kung-fu. > A lot of the exercises are specifically > aimed at increasing prana as they are in one > way pranayama exercises done while moving the > sacral area vigorously through kicks. > >> I would say leave the kundalini alone unless you have a close, intimate >>relationship with a very good and trustworthy realized teacher, maturity in >>understanding your path, a really stable life where you understand diet and >>your body is really fit, a place to practice where you have no obligations >>such as work and family > > And when is that ? > > Kundalini chooses whom to leave alone or not. > Who knows what ways it brings individuals > closer to itself. > > However, I do agree with you that a fit body > and a somewhat cleaned up life may make > for an easier process. > >>I was fortunate in finding >>a teacher who saved my life in every sense of >the word > > Here's what I really wanted to say about this. > Georg Feuerstein in his short and lucid > overview of Indian tantric traditions, > "Tantra the path of ecstacy" > (an excellent book, btw, I do recommend it) > mentions that some tantric adepts in India > smear themselves with ashes after having > received initiation and that the > central channel is also called The Cremation > Ground because the Kundalini process > as well as the spiritual process, in many ways > copies the process of death. > > My personal experience is that this is pretty > much true. > The Kundalini process is about giving up > the ego, the notions that I am this profession, > I am this person, I am this gender, > and > dissolve it into the base consciousness that > all carry within themselves. > So there must be a giving up of many things, > external and internal. > This feels for the unprepared ego very much > like death and also for the somewhat prepared > ego like death while being alive as well. > > There is a dissolution process and it seems to me to depend on the starting > point, the > external personality itself, what it thinks it > wants. > However, many ppl mention that Kundalini is a > self repairing process and this seems to me > to be very much true as well. > As Greg mentioned, to become nothing > you first have to become something. > > Nevertheless, there is one way... > the will to die can be harnessed the same as > the will to live, these two seemingly opposing > forces can be seen to originate from the same > place and also be set to (as Bernadette > Roberts mentions in her book) turn back onto > itself into a process giving life beyond > "normal" concepts. > > For me at least, the Kundalini process means > letting go, especially of the fear of > annihilation. It is not always easy, but > it is there. > > In one way, the energy can pull you into a silent corner and from there, > you can watch > many interesting things about the inner > emotional life... to me this was the start > of learning how to meditate... in a natural > way. > > The process is a teacher, it is > as Dharma has mentioned been regarded as > pure consciousness and the Self by many. > It has also been a called a raising of the > vibrations of the entire bodies of the > individual. Some things must be left behind. > In many ways, as time goes by, more and more > will be revealed of the Self, either through the > play of Maya or the dance of Shiva > (and it is the individual's choice what to > consider the single things as). > It is like a screen hiding the Self from > the individual consciousness gliding to the > side to let more light in, through the central > channel. > > Love, > > Amanda. > > > > Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com > > ------ > MAXIMIZE YOUR CARD, MINIMIZE YOUR RATE! > Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as > 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. > Apply NOW! > http://click./1/2122/5/_/520931/_/953571238/ > ------ > > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from > the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 In a message dated 3/20/00 1:57:23 PM Mountain Standard Time, leteegee writes: << When you speak of losing the "I", are we talking in the sense of 'everyone is me', or more of a loss of personality, who *I* am?' ...or is there something else?? >> I think I'd say all of the above. The first time I "saw" this, I had both the sense of everybody being me and also the loss of "I," which would seem to go together. I didn't have the feeling of losing anything, though, it was more that what I had thought of as my personhood was revealed as a virtual entity -- in reality the whole bundle of energies and tendencies that make up "Holly" were aspects of the Absolute. Nowadays I don't "see" this way all the time, but I am always aware at some level of not existing in any historical sense. What I am noticing that is odd, but most pleasant, is the sense of becoming a creature, like a bird or something. It is part of the emptying out, I think, as if I am turning into Generic Brand Human Being! I have no ambition, few desires, but I certainly enjoy all the features that generally come along with human life. Love, Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 In a message dated 3/20/00 12:45:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, insight writes: << I say quite sincerely that I still know absolutely nothing. >> Thank you, Joyce. This statement sums up my feelings about k (and other spiritual matters). Thanx also for sharing your story. jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 Hi Amanda, You continue to amaze me! I read your posts with deep enjoyment and a constant smile on my face. You have grown so much in the last - what, year? two years? You are living evidence of what can be achieved in a fairly short time if the will to grow and change is there. I no longer hear the personality speaking here... your words come from beyond, my wise friend. >With time >this all seeing-eye does not need to >feel overwhelming or fearful. However, the loss >of individuality is not acceptable until... >it is accepted. >There is a shared being somewhere. >snip< >For me at least, the Kundalini process means >letting go, especially of the fear of >annihilation. It is not always easy, but >it is there. >snip< > Some things must be left behind. >In many ways, as time goes by, more and more >will be revealed of the Self, either through the >play of Maya or the dance of Shiva >(and it is the individual's choice what to >consider the single things as). >It is like a screen hiding the Self from >the individual consciousness gliding to the >side to let more light in, through the central >channel. Namaste. Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 > > I had a couple of different/same experiences regarding individuality, that > have still boggled my mind. The first during my very active kundalini, I was > on a road trip, and all of a sudden realized everyone was me! No real "I" > lost -- but more/all of "me" found. For the first time in my life, I could > walk into a store/shop/anywhere, and see there was no one to be afraid of... > because everyone was me! You couldn't help but be kind to each and every > person. It was a wonderful feeling and I savored every minute of it. Yes, me too, but my great "problem" was...I also knew, was pretty certain, that those standing about in the shop with me were not experiencing me as "them" - they were ordinary folks in their ordinary consciousness buying food for supper. So - I had to pretend to be the same - which was very distracting from what I was really experiencing and I was really terrified they would withdraw from me and my "craziness." Although really I was the sane one. I pretty well do the same thing now but it isnt so stressful. Perhaps we ought to start summer camp for those playing with loss of boundaries. But, since then, Ive learned what to do and expect to really enjoy the ride next time as there will be a next time. I finally twigged on the fact that whatever you experience is your own mind - sorry, that sounds so stupid and obvious. For me there is an immense experience of "I" that can be any of its parts - and a kind of ordinary experience which is mostly empathetic - I can consciously choose/will to be empathetic but the huge "I" that finds itself in and as the smallest creature seems to occur spontaneously and as it will. Im no longer afraid of fear. Joyce > > After my kundalini (exploded)(?), a most frightening thing occurred. I lost > all sense of who "I" was -- a complete loss of personality -- I didn't know > if I was my mom, my daughter, you, you, or you. It was like the opposite of > the previous occurrance. I could have been anyone... and I didn't know who > *I* was any longer! In the previous experience, I still knew I was me. > This one sent me over the edge, which was the beginning of many frightening > occurrances that took me 2 years to heal from. > > Many talk here of losing the sense of "I" as a *plus*, but I have to say that > this (latter experience) is one thing I'm not sure I would ever want to > experience again. Maybe had I been more knowledgeable at the time... or had > someone to walk me through, telling me what was occurring, my whole > experience of it would have been different. > > Had I not got into fear, what would have occurred, if anything? Just another > beautiful experience? When you speak of losing the "I", are we talking in > the sense of 'everyone is me', or more of a loss of personality, who *I* am?' > ...or is there something else?? > > Just wondering... > > Love, > xxxtg > > ------ > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates > as low as 0.0% Intro APR and no hidden fees. > Apply NOW! > http://click./1/975/5/_/520931/_/953585770/ > ------ > > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from > the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 Hi tg, >I had a couple of different/same experiences regarding individuality, that >have still boggled my mind. The first during my very active kundalini, I was >on a road trip, and all of a sudden realized everyone was me! No real "I" >lost -- but more/all of "me" found. For the first time in my life, I could >walk into a store/shop/anywhere, and see there was no one to be afraid of... >because everyone was me! You couldn't help but be kind to each and every >person. It was a wonderful feeling and I savored every minute of it. Yes, wonderful! When I was in grade school, my dad mentioned that Einstein said the fourth dimension is time. So I wondered why we can't move both directions in time. And I wondered if maybe after death we _could_! Then, if reincarnation were true, I could be born in another life at any time, even in the past from now. Where is the limit to that? I realized that if that were so, I could be every living person and everyone who ever lived. I didn't really believe that, but it was a fascinating thought... and it stayed with me... I wondered again about it from time to time. It was many years before I understood that the conclusion was true! Even though the reasoning doesn't hold up. I think that thought, that image, in some way led me on and was a preparation for later experience. >After my kundalini (exploded)(?), a most frightening thing occurred. I lost >all sense of who "I" was -- a complete loss of personality -- I didn't know >if I was my mom, my daughter, you, you, or you. It was like the opposite of >the previous occurrance. I could have been anyone... and I didn't know who >*I* was any longer! In the previous experience, I still knew I was me. >This one sent me over the edge, which was the beginning of many frightening >occurrances that took me 2 years to heal from. Jerry posted the story of a woman who suddenly lost that "I" and it was permanent... Reading her account, I thought that she might have had a stroke. You speak of an explosion of Kundalini... I'm wondering if there might have been a little brain damage... two years seems not abnormal for nerve damage to heal. >Many talk here of losing the sense of "I" as a *plus*, but I have to say that >this (latter experience) is one thing I'm not sure I would ever want to >experience again. >snip< >When you speak of losing the "I", are we talking in >the sense of 'everyone is me', or more of a loss of personality, who *I* am?' > ...or is there something else?? I think there are degrees or stages... we understand 'everyone is me'... and later we understand it more fully and deeply... and again... and when we go into the All and come back, we know it's so. But I think the basic "I-making" faculty is a part of our paraphernalia for manifesting as human beings... and it's a necessary part. We need that "I"... that focus here-and-now in the bodies... to function as human. That's why it's a mistake to try to "kill the ego." It IS possible to be without that "I-making" faculty... but it isn't what most of us would choose. I'm including here Sannella's short appendix on the "Masts" of India... they are such people. Love, Dharma ------------- [Appendix 2. Lee Sannella, M.D. Kundalini Experience. Lower Lake CA: Integral Publishing.] THE GOD-INTOXICATED MASTS OF INDIA "Masts" - from Hindi _mast_, meaning "head, skull" - is the name used by the Indian adept Meher Baba to refer to "God-intoxicated" men and women. From a conventional point of view, they are "not right in their heads" or "out of their minds." But they can also be looked upon as "mutations" toward a primal link with the transcendental Reality. These Masts are thought to arise in times of crisis to fulfill certain vital functions for the benefit of all humanity. Because of the strangeness of their behavior they may easily be mistaken for psychotics. However, their condition may be distinguished from schizophrenia by their compelling attractiveness to the ordinary folk who gather around to serve and be near them, and a recognition of them as saints by their followers. They have an obvious lack of interest in dealing with ordinary life situations, their own physical needs, emotional relationships, or even intellectual functioning in the ordinary sense. Meher Baba worked with both Masts and psychotics, and he carefully distinguished between the two. He made no effort to cure them. His labors with them were never explained by him and must remain obscure. The Masts seem to appear only within a solid religious tradition. W. Donkin (1948), the physician who accompanied Meher Baba for years, believed that they were pivotal points of spiritual intervention: forces around which, and through whom, other spiritual influences could work to serve humanity. Their power seemed to him more autonomous and primal than that of the mind or heart of other saintly persons. The kundalini process at times evokes feelings and behavior similar to those of the Masts of India. In fact, the Masts' peculiar condition may well be the result of spontaneous kundalini activity. The question poses itself: What would we in the West do with such folk? The answer is not far to seek, for we would surely have these gentle saints referred to our clinics and asylums. What a tremendous loss this would be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.