Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 In a message dated 3/21/00 11:53:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, insight writes: << If anyone is at the point of despair where they begin to contemplate drugs, really how sad, surely we can find a friend - or even just ask for support with the mind as prayer - I believe in miracles over drugs. Joyce >> God bless your courage, must have been unbelievably painful. Certainly hasn't effected your writing, is clear as a crystal bell :-) L*L*L bo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 Ville said: > As long as you stay away from psychotherapists, drugs are ok. I would argue that *some* drugs (whether legal or illegal, natural or synthetic) are ok, regardless of whether one is K-active or not, but which drugs are ok is likely to vary from one person to the next... Gill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 > I would say leave the kundalini alone unless you have a close, intimate Well, leaving k alone doesn't necessarily make k leave *you* alone :-). > your body is really fit, a place to practice where you have no obligations > such as work and family and stay away from drugs and psychotherapists. As long as you stay away from psychotherapists, drugs are ok. Ville Vainio - vvainio http://www.tp.spt.fi/~vvainio Wild geese have no intention to cast a reflection Water has no mind to assume their form Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 Sorry, I misunderstood; must have missed the rest of the thread. I stand by what I say, though - it's best to be cautious with anything that drastically alters your brain chemistry. (Guess that would include K <g>.) gill > I was speaking of medical drugs, and at least benzodiazepines > (medium/long-lasting) can be life-savers on certain occasions. The only > natural possibly efficient drug I can think of right now is reserpine, > which is allegedly equivalent of chemical lobotomy, and causes severe > depression (and thus isn't used anymore except for blood pressure). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Gill Collingwood wrote: > I would argue that *some* drugs (whether legal or illegal, natural or > synthetic) are ok, regardless of whether one is K-active or not, but > which drugs are ok is likely to vary from one person to the next... I was speaking of medical drugs, and at least benzodiazepines (medium/long-lasting) can be life-savers on certain occasions. The only natural possibly efficient drug I can think of right now is reserpine, which is allegedly equivalent of chemical lobotomy, and causes severe depression (and thus isn't used anymore except for blood pressure). Ville Vainio - vvainio http://www.tp.spt.fi/~vvainio Wild geese have no intention to cast a reflection Water has no mind to assume their form Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 Hi Gill: How are you doing with the exercise? Are you still doing it? I have chosen to pretty much stay out of the 'k' discussion but would like to interject here that David Frawley has a wonderful book out called Yoga and Ayurveda and in this book he lists many herbs that are recommended for various stages on the spiritual journey. At this point I might as well mention that Kundalini Yoga does not work only to bring up the kundalini it is a system that works to prepare the body especially the nervous system for the energy of the kundalini. If uses the techniques of this system of yoga with wisdom and common sense great benefit can be derived from it. Hope you are doing well. Linda "Gill Collingwood" <gill (AT) nimbus (DOT) demon.co.uk> >I would argue that *some* drugs (whether >legal or illegal, natural or >synthetic) are ok, regardless of whether >one is K-active or not, but >which drugs are ok is likely to vary from >one person to the next... >Gill // All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription between digest and normal mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 Yes, too true. But, one can know what ones intentions are. Some have a notion that "awakening the Kundalini" is a good thing for whatever reason. And, if you are using intense one-pointed concentration this is the same as using a mirror to direct the suns rays to a piece of paper - you are going to get energy, things can combust. I know exactly what to do right now to generate this energy again. The thing is, it isnt at all necessary to do this to follow any practice and path - ordinary consciousness is all one needs. One can work with the jhanas to achieve certain insights but these states are impermanent and the concentration level needed to achieve them and their lessons is still not as intense as what one uses to generate what we call "kundalini" - all that being said - in all innocence these things can happen and we live in a compassionate universe where if one gets in a muddle there is help to be found - all we need to do is to reach out for it. After we are struck down by hubris, the gods are happy enough to pick us up again and dust us off. I think the worst that can be said for these experiences is that one tends to cling to them (we can note that we are all discussing events from the "past") and thus loose awareness through this involvement and obsessing. Drugs are useless and a waste of time - one tends to believe these are somehow apart from one's own mind. There is nothing we cannot do, if we wish, if we choose, with our own mind. Take care of yourself. Joyce say leave the kundalini alone unless you have a close, intimate > > Well, leaving k alone doesn't necessarily make k leave *you* alone :-). > >> your body is really fit, a place to practice where you have no obligations >> such as work and family and stay away from drugs and psychotherapists. > > As long as you stay away from psychotherapists, drugs are ok. > > Ville Vainio - vvainio http://www.tp.spt.fi/~vvainio > Wild geese have no intention to cast a reflection > Water has no mind to assume their form > > > ------ > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% > Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! > http://click./1/937/5/_/520931/_/953644990/ > ------ > > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from > the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Joyce Short wrote: > Drugs are useless and a waste of time - one tends to believe these are > somehow apart from one's own mind. There is nothing we cannot do, if we > wish, if we choose, with our own mind. I wouldn't exactly call it waste of time - at least wasting time is the last thing you think of when you are thinking you are losing your sanity. Anxiety is incapacitating, and can cause suicidal ideation. Why deny yourself the possibility to calm down? Anxiety can be at least as counterproductive as the drugs that supress that anxiety. Using meditation, visualization & other related "techniques" to calm down can be much more hazardous with k than anxiolytic drugs. Ville Vainio - vvainio http://www.tp.spt.fi/~vvainio Wild geese have no intention to cast a reflection Water has no mind to assume their form Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 Of course, Im only speaking from my own limited experience and if this is actually helpful to someone why not? I was given something called "Ativan" - I did not know it was addictive - I thought addiction was something to do with heroine and coccaine etc. and not for nice middle class people like me. My doctor was a very nice man, he was concerned that I was a tad anxious and I certainly believed that he had my best interests at heart. I was first given it when I was on my way to Africa and while there, had run out of wee tablets and having the shakes went off to the African Dr. thinking I had Malaria. I showed him my empty tablet bottle and he looked at it said O yes, and gave me yet more Ativan. For quite sometime I was completely free of physical pain and anxiety for the first time in my life. My production of art work tripled - minor detail that I never showed up for appointments, neglected my family, bashed up the car - got stronger and stronger doses of Ativan - still completely unconsciounsess that I was heavily addicted - after all -the drug made me free of all anxiety worry and etc. Im Nairobi, actually did a whole play of costumes including masks and I have no recollection of doing it. Finally a friend stepped in one day -asked me to give her the pills which I did - and helped me through a God awful withdrawal - during which at times I was crawling around on the floor looking for a stray tablet or two. During the endless sleepless days and nights of hallucinations where I seemed to see everything in my entire life that I had always refused to face I remembered the Tara mantra, crawled onto an vibration of peace where I did this over and over. And then as my health returned, it took ages before I was even able to write my name again, I returned to meditation practice. This was a few years ago. I would still like to have one of those nifty little absolutely corrupting little pills. Theres not a day goes by when I dont think of going off for a few pills - I can certainly get them, as as addict I know every lie going. So - you think dope is helpful? Really? Better to sit with pain when it arises - it doesnt last - it gets less and less - and reality gets more and more -we give birth to our babies drug free - why not to ourselves. A final thought - I was eventually able to compare my mind state on Ativan and off it - what did the drug do for me - why was life so much better on it - or seemingly so? I saw quite clearly that my thought patterns were negative and self abusive and that with effort and over time, I could just learn to stop beating myself up and let the self hate go. If anyone is at the point of despair where they begin to contemplate drugs, really how sad, surely we can find a friend - or even just ask for support with the mind as prayer - I believe in miracles over drugs. Joyce > Drugs are useless and a waste of time - one tends to believe these are >> somehow apart from one's own mind. There is nothing we cannot do, if we >> wish, if we choose, with our own mind. > > I wouldn't exactly call it waste of time - at least wasting time is the > last thing you think of when you are thinking you are losing your sanity. > Anxiety is incapacitating, and can cause suicidal ideation. Why deny > yourself the possibility to calm down? Anxiety can be at least as > counterproductive as the drugs that supress that anxiety. Using > meditation, visualization & other related "techniques" to calm down can be > much more hazardous with k than anxiolytic drugs. > > Ville Vainio - vvainio http://www.tp.spt.fi/~vvainio > Wild geese have no intention to cast a reflection > Water has no mind to assume their form > > > ------ > DON'T HATE YOUR RATE! > Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as > 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. > Apply NOW! > http://click./1/2120/5/_/520931/_/953648753/ > ------ > > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from > the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 Joyce, In my experience, the despair includes feeling undeserving of friends... and prayers aren't always answered, at least not in a way that makes any sense at the time. Drugs are more reliable than miracles. Gill > If anyone is at the point of despair where they begin to contemplate > drugs, really how sad, surely we can find a friend - or even just ask for > support with the mind as prayer - I believe in miracles over drugs. > > Joyce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 Hi Joyce, I'm sorry, I've (again) replied to a part of your post before I've seen the whole thing, and thus taken something out of context. There seems to be some delay somewhere. I think that basically, my position lies somewhere between yours and Ville's. I think that drugs are sometimes necessary, sometimes useful, and should always be used with great care. Gill > "Joyce Short" <insight > > Of course, Im only speaking from my own limited experience and if this is > actually helpful to someone why not? I was given something called > "Ativan" - I did not know it was addictive - I thought addiction was > something to do with heroine and coccaine etc. and not for nice middle > class people like me. My doctor was a very nice man, he was concerned that > I was a tad anxious and I certainly believed that he had my best interests > at heart. > > I was first given it when I was on my way to Africa and while there, had > run out of wee tablets and having the shakes went off to the African Dr. > thinking I had Malaria. I showed him my empty tablet bottle and he looked > at it said O yes, and gave me yet more Ativan. For quite sometime I was > completely free of physical pain and anxiety for the first time in my > life. My production of art work tripled - minor detail that I never showed > up for appointments, neglected my family, bashed up the car - got stronger > and stronger doses of Ativan - still completely unconsciounsess that I was > heavily addicted - after all -the drug made me free of all anxiety worry > and etc. Im Nairobi, actually did a whole play of costumes including > masks and I have no recollection of doing it. > > Finally a friend stepped in one day -asked me to give her the pills which > I did - and helped me through a God awful withdrawal - during which at > times I was crawling around on the floor looking for a stray tablet or > two. During the endless sleepless days and nights of hallucinations where > I seemed to see everything in my entire life that I had always refused to > face I remembered the Tara mantra, crawled onto an vibration of peace > where I did this over and over. And then as my health returned, it took > ages before I was even able to write my name again, I returned to > meditation practice. This was a few years ago. I would still like to have > one of those nifty little absolutely corrupting little pills. Theres not > a day goes by when I dont think of going off for a few pills - I can > certainly get them, as as addict I know every lie going. So - you think > dope is helpful? Really? Better to sit with pain when it arises - it > doesnt last - it gets less and less - and reality gets more and more -we > give birth to our babies drug free - why not to ourselves. > > A final thought - I was eventually able to compare my mind state on Ativan > and off it - what did the drug do for me - why was life so much better on > it - or seemingly so? I saw quite clearly that my thought patterns were > negative and self abusive and that with effort and over time, I could just > learn to stop beating myself up and let the self hate go. > > If anyone is at the point of despair where they begin to contemplate > drugs, really how sad, surely we can find a friend - or even just ask for > support with the mind as prayer - I believe in miracles over drugs. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 Yes, it can certainly seem like that! Odd how these wretched thoughts seem so completely "true" and the positive thoughts about our lives seem highly dubious. And one doesnt want others to see, one doesnt want to frighten anyone with showing ones true state... Humpty Dumpty on the wall hates to fall, he may never get up again. One looks for the crack in the wall, one lives with the sliver of ice in ones heart put there by the Snow Queen. But, something will happen, after the drugs, and the booze, and the barren relationships, the lost opportunities, all the disappointment and broken dreams -when one will have had enough and make a leap of faith, perhaps deciding whether to live, really live or die - knowing there isnt any death really and who wants to end up in the bleak regions. We have to walk the path - no way out of that. Its not so bad - try the prayer "Thy Will Be Done" - the light is there when we finally give ourselves (kicking and screaming) to it. Much much fun than dead end drugs! All sorts of adventures to be had! Love Joyce > "Gill Collingwood" <gill > > Joyce, In my experience, the despair includes feeling undeserving > of friends... and prayers aren't always answered, at least not in a > way that makes any sense at the time. > Drugs are more reliable than miracles. > Gill > >> If anyone is at the point of despair where they begin to contemplate >> drugs, really how sad, surely we can find a friend - or even just ask for >> support with the mind as prayer - I believe in miracles over drugs. >> >> Joyce > > > ------ > DON'T HATE YOUR RATE! > Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as > 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. > Apply NOW! > http://click./1/2120/5/_/520931/_/953658575/ > ------ > > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from > the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 At 16:25 21/03/00 +0200, you wrote: >Ville Vainio <vvainio > >On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Joyce Short wrote: > >> Drugs are useless and a waste of time - one tends to believe these are >> somehow apart from one's own mind. There is nothing we cannot do, if we >> wish, if we choose, with our own mind. > Aah, drugs!... <fades off into reverie, eyes fixed on the middle distance> Seriously, though, When I was 23, I had an operation for kidney stones. They gave me plenty of morphine tablets for the five weeks before I went into hospital, for the pain attacks. The pain was so bad I couldn't breathe, and I was glad of the little fluffy clouds that came to carry me away when I took a couple of the darling little pills. I'd heard of addiction to morphine, so I asked the doctor to prescribe some *non-addictive* <lol> pills. He gave me DF118's. They were hopeless, and I nearly overdosed dangerously because they didn't help the pain. Back to the morphine, and bliss. After the operation, I was given morphine injections every 4 hours, for nearly two weeks (complications happened). The effects soon wore off within about 2 and a half hours, leaving me climbing the wall because I hadn't been able to come to grips with the pain via my endorphins. I remember begging a nurse to give me an injection an hour before it was due (she refused, bless her). I became worried that when I went home, I'd get bad withdrawals when the injections/pills were no longer there. I was amazed to find that I had *no* withdrawals when I went home! I reckon it was the change in circumstances that removed expectations and sidetracked my sense of "loss" over the drug. So addiction in my experience is more than a physical thing: it has psych factors too. I guess awareness helps in all things. Love Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 Hi Joyce, > Yes, it can certainly seem like that! Odd how these wretched thoughts seem > so completely "true" and the positive thoughts about our lives seem highly > dubious. And one doesnt want others to see, one doesnt want to frighten > anyone with showing ones true state... Yes! Humpty Dumpty on the wall hates to > fall, he may never get up again. One looks for the crack in the wall, one > lives with the sliver of ice in ones heart put there by the Snow Queen. Absolutely. > But, something will happen, after the drugs, and the booze, and the barren > relationships, the lost opportunities, all the disappointment and broken > dreams -when one will have had enough and make a leap of faith, perhaps > deciding whether to live, really live or die - knowing there isnt any > death really and who wants to end up in the bleak regions. The question for me now is, how to really live, rather than drifting along and never quite connecting... > We have to walk the path - no way out of that. Its not so bad - try the > prayer "Thy Will Be Done" - the light is there when we finally give > ourselves (kicking and screaming) to it. Thy Will Be Done is one I use a lot; sometimes it helps a bit. But I'm not too good at surrender; don't want to trust anyone *that* much, not even God... (even when I'm screwing up so much that God couldn't possibly do any worse!) > Much much fun than dead end drugs! All sorts of adventures to be had! I agree... I just have to keep reminding myself that I deserve it! (Though I must say, in my case those adventures might possibly include the use of recreational drugs occasionally... ) Gill > Love Joyce > > > > > "Gill Collingwood" <gill > > > > Joyce, In my experience, the despair includes feeling undeserving > > of friends... and prayers aren't always answered, at least not in a way > > that makes any sense at the time. Drugs are more reliable than miracles. > > Gill > > > >> If anyone is at the point of despair where they begin to contemplate > >> drugs, really how sad, surely we can find a friend - or even just ask > >> for support with the mind as prayer - I believe in miracles over > >> drugs. > >> > >> Joyce > > > > > > ------ > > DON'T HATE YOUR RATE! Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as > > low as 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! > > http://click./1/2120/5/_/520931/_/953658575/ > > ------ > > > > // > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the > > nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always > > Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart > > to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the > > Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. > > Welcome all to > a. > > > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > > www., and select the User Center link from > > the menu bar > > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > > subscription > > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > > > > > > ------ > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or > 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! > http://click./1/936/5/_/520931/_/953659536/ > ------ > > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the > nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. > It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the > Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of > Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome > all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from > the menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you > change your subscription between digest and normal > mode. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 > > The question for me now is, how to really live, rather than drifting > along and never quite connecting... It is wisdom to know that you are "drifting" and you have thus connected with that - although this is a concept and if you put your knowing attention on the experience you call "drifting" it would be interesting to see what happens. Whatever we are doing is quite fine. There is absolutely nothing we should be doing or being other than what we are. The problem is when mind gets busy and makes disapproving comments (usually sounding like mum, dad or granny). Full surrender is quite difficult, it isn't something I could ever willfully do - sometimes it just seems to come upon us. I think one could start out with some minor capitualation verging on non resistence. Then one could listen to the good advice coming from one's heart, surrender to that and see what happens. For instance - surrender full to "drifting".......... I suppose drugs for sport is OK - I experimented and ended up with the revelation that I had invented "myself" and the horrifed certainty at the time that this was something I was not suppose to have discovered. All really funny now. But, you never know when you are going to drop dead and I want to be lucid when I go. Trust or faith comes from suffering - in this aspect suffering is our friend. Sooner or later we get tired of it and pick ourselves up out of the dust and get a grip. I read Gurdieff asking one of his students, "Do you want to die like a dog?" meaning he'd better get busy with mindfulness - this impressed me. Take care of your Self. Joyce > >> We have to walk the path - no way out of that. Its not so bad - try the >> prayer "Thy Will Be Done" - the light is there when we finally give >> ourselves (kicking and screaming) to it. > > Thy Will Be Done is one I use a lot; sometimes it helps a bit. But > I'm not too good at surrender; don't want to trust anyone *that* > much, not even God... (even when I'm screwing up so much that > God couldn't possibly do any worse!) > >> Much much fun than dead end drugs! All sorts of adventures to be had! > > I agree... I just have to keep reminding myself that I deserve it! > (Though I must say, in my case those adventures might possibly > include the use of recreational drugs occasionally... ) > > Gill >> Love Joyce >> >> >> >> > "Gill Collingwood" <gill >> > >> > Joyce, In my experience, the despair includes feeling undeserving >> > of friends... and prayers aren't always answered, at least not in a way >> > that makes any sense at the time. Drugs are more reliable than miracles. >> > Gill >> > >> >> If anyone is at the point of despair where they begin to contemplate >> >> drugs, really how sad, surely we can find a friend - or even just ask >> >> for support with the mind as prayer - I believe in miracles over >> >> drugs. >> >> >> >> Joyce >> > >> > >> > ------ >> > DON'T HATE YOUR RATE! Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as >> > low as 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! >> > http://click./1/2120/5/_/520931/_/953658575/ >> > ------ >> > >> > // >> > >> > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >> > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and >> > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not >> > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the >> > nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always >> > Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart >> > to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the >> > Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. >> > Welcome all to >> a. >> > >> > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at >> > www., and select the User Center link from >> > the menu bar >> > on the left. This menu will also let you change your >> > subscription >> > between digest and normal mode. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> ------ >> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or >> 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! >> http://click./1/936/5/_/520931/_/953659536/ >> ------ >> >> // >> >> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >> perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and >> subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not >> different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the >> nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. >> It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the >> Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of >> Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome >> all to a. >> >> To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at >> www., and select the User Center link from >> the menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you >> change your subscription between digest and normal >> mode. >> >> >> >> > > > > ------ > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% > Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! > http://click./1/937/5/_/520931/_/953662559/ > ------ > > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from > the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 Hi Joyce, > > The question for me now is, how to really live, rather than drifting > > along and never quite connecting... > > It is wisdom to know that you are "drifting" and you have thus connected > with that - although this is a concept and if you put your knowing > attention on the experience you call "drifting" it would be interesting to > see what happens. Whatever we are doing is quite fine. There is > absolutely nothing we should be doing or being other than what we are. > The problem is when mind gets busy and makes disapproving comments > (usually sounding like mum, dad or granny). Hmmm... well, sometimes that is true, certainly. But also there's simply a feeling that I *want* to get more out of life, that I could enjoy myself a lot more, if only I could overcome my own inertia. I just don't want to die wishing I'd done more! > Full surrender is quite difficult, it isn't something I could ever > willfully do - sometimes it just seems to come upon us. I think one could > start out with some minor capitualation verging on non resistence. Then > one could listen to the good advice coming from one's heart, surrender to > that and see what happens. For instance - surrender full to > "drifting".......... I do that, sometimes. One day I did toy with the idea of complete surrender (it was while I was studying ACIM) and found that the more I focused on the idea, the more scared I got. That was when I realised I had problems trusting God, LOL... my ego thinks it knows what's good for me, better than God does!! Well, I guess I should expect my ego to be egotistical. > I suppose drugs for sport is OK - I experimented and ended up with the > revelation that I had invented "myself" and the horrifed certainty at the > time that this was something I was not suppose to have discovered. That's hilarious! Though I guess it wasn't at the time... All > really funny now. But, you never know when you are going to drop dead and > I want to be lucid when I go. Oh, so do I. Mind you, I reckon I'd be pretty lucid just after I died, even if I wasn't before... (assuming we don't all just end up as worm- food). > Trust or faith comes from suffering - in this aspect suffering is our > friend. Yes - and I don't think I suffered enough. I did suffer, but I still couldn't surrender enough... and now I'm not suffering much at all, and I certainly can't surrender. OTOH, I don't want to go back there, if that's the price... Sooner or later we get tired of it and pick ourselves up out of > the dust and get a grip. I read Gurdieff asking one of his students, "Do > you want to die like a dog?" meaning he'd better get busy with mindfulness > - this impressed me. I think I confuse awareness with analysing... mindfulness is difficult, there are always thoughts pulling me away from here/now. Mindfulness is a funny word... the meaning seems closer to mindemptiness! > Take care of your Self. I'm trying (probably in more ways than one...) Bless you, gill > Joyce > > > > > > > >> We have to walk the path - no way out of that. Its not so bad - try the > >> prayer "Thy Will Be Done" - the light is there when we finally give > >> ourselves (kicking and screaming) to it. > > > > Thy Will Be Done is one I use a lot; sometimes it helps a bit. But > > I'm not too good at surrender; don't want to trust anyone *that* > > much, not even God... (even when I'm screwing up so much that > > God couldn't possibly do any worse!) > > > >> Much much fun than dead end drugs! All sorts of adventures to be had! > > > > I agree... I just have to keep reminding myself that I deserve it! > > (Though I must say, in my case those adventures might possibly > > include the use of recreational drugs occasionally... ) > > > > Gill > >> Love Joyce > >> > >> > >> > >> > "Gill Collingwood" <gill > >> > > >> > Joyce, In my experience, the despair includes feeling undeserving of > >> > friends... and prayers aren't always answered, at least not in a way > >> > that makes any sense at the time. Drugs are more reliable than > >> > miracles. Gill > >> > > >> >> If anyone is at the point of despair where they begin to > >> >> contemplate drugs, really how sad, surely we can find a friend - or > >> >> even just ask for support with the mind as prayer - I believe in > >> >> miracles over drugs. > >> >> > >> >> Joyce > >> > > >> > > >> > --- > >> > --- DON'T HATE YOUR RATE! Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get > >> > rates as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. > >> > Apply NOW! http://click./1/2120/5/_/520931/_/953658575/ > >> > --- > >> > --- > >> > > >> > // > >> > > >> > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > >> > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > >> > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > >> > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of > >> > the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always > >> > Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the > >> > Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in > >> > the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into > >> > It Self. Welcome all to > >> a. > >> > > >> > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > >> > www., and select the User Center link > >> > from > >> > the menu bar > >> > on the left. This menu will also let you change > >> > your > >> > subscription > >> > between digest and normal mode. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> ----- > >> - GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro > >> or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! > >> http://click./1/936/5/_/520931/_/953659536/ > >> ----- > >> - > >> > >> // > >> > >> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > >> perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > >> subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > >> different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the > >> nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always > >> Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart > >> to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the > >> Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It > >> Self. Welcome all to a. > >> > >> To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > >> www., and select the User Center link > >> from the menu bar on the left. This menu will also > >> let you change your subscription between digest and > >> normal mode. > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ------ > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% Intro or > > 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! > > http://click./1/937/5/_/520931/_/953662559/ > > ------ > > > > // > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the > > nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always > > Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart > > to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the > > Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. > > Welcome all to > a. > > > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > > www., and select the User Center link from > > the menu bar > > on the left. This menu will also let you change your > > subscription > > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > > > > > > ------ > DON'T HATE YOUR RATE! Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as > low as 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! > http://click./1/2120/5/_/520931/_/953674804/ > ------ > > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the > nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. > It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the > Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of > Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome > all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from > the menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you > change your subscription between digest and normal > mode. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2000 Report Share Posted March 22, 2000 On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Joyce Short wrote: > Of course, Im only speaking from my own limited experience and if this is As are we all... > If anyone is at the point of despair where they begin to contemplate drugs, > really how sad, surely we can find a friend - or even just ask for support I don't think it's "sad" or despisable. Suffering is just something that happens (ie it's not a punishment, or a lesson), and it can be controlled if one chooses so. If I have an annoying allergic reaction (which I do, from time to time), I take antihistamine and can't see what is so wicked about it. However, one should not take addictive drugs in a way that makes one an addict (you didn't know that the Ativan was addictive, but these days people are quite well informed). > with the mind as prayer - I believe in miracles over drugs. Having never seen a miracle, I really can't put much faith in them... Ville Vainio - vvainio http://www.tp.spt.fi/~vvainio Wild geese have no intention to cast a reflection Water has no mind to assume their form Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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