Antidepressant expose

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:12:57 Bruce Morgen wrote:

>> The author compares it to saying that

>> >someone whose headache has been relieved by aspirin has an aspirin

>> >deficiency.

>

>This is a bad analogy from a

>fool with an medical degree.

>If SSRIs actualy contained

>seratonin (the aspirin

>analogue in question) it

>would make sense, as it is

>it's just woefully

>imprecise, hyperbolic prose.

 

To clear up and you are right btw,

this was a very bad analogy, one built on

the same kind of superstition the author

accuses the MDs and pharmaceutical industry of having in their products and one

fueled

by self righteous anger.

 

To start from the basic terms:

serotonin is a neurotransmitter, a molecule

that is responsible for the transmission of

electrical impulses from one neuron to another

in the brain.

Neurons, nerve cells, depend on such molecules

to transmit impulses.

The neurotransmitters are made by one neuron

and released into the tiny

space that exists between two neurons.

This is where the transmitter does its thing,

effecting certain changes on the surface of

the other neuron and thus enabling the

electrical impulse to bridge the gap

from one neuron to the next in the form of

chemical energy potential, the neurotransmitter.

 

After the neurotransmitter has reached the

other neuron, it is usually broken down into

smaller chemical molecules

and these are taken up by the neuron to be

reused in further transmission.

This recycling

is a way for the body to save resources

and energy.

 

The neurotransmitter serotonin, is a transmitter

found in many areas of the brain.

It is found in many different circuits and

has a very wide range of effects, including

mood, hunger sensation, sleep, waking states,

sexual emotions, attention and memory.

It is also linked in effect and by its

curcuits with other neurotransmitter

systems in the brain.

 

SSRI means Specific Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor

and as the name implies, these are chemical

compunds that inhibit the reuptake of

serotonin back into the neuron for recycling.

The direct effect of this inhibition is more

serotonin being available for signal

transmission b/n neurons and it is this that

effects the elevation of mood that is

desired.

>The thing is, all the

>dangers of all the cited

>substances became well-known

>fairly soon after their

>introduction into the

>marketplace. If there

>actually are serious side

>effects to SSRIs, they too

>will show up soon or be seen

>for the hyperbolic scare

>tactics they may well be.

 

I just got the thought that

medicine hype and the opposite,

backlashes are in many

ways the modern day equivalent of superstition.

A balanced consideration of the pros and

cons of a medicine or treatment is almost

impossible to make because of hyperbole, sweeping generalizations

and overly emotional involvement such as

the original post we have seen that dominates the debate. With half the general

public

not really knowing what a neurotransmitter really is and how it works, it is no

wonder

it is dificult for the general public to make

choices regarding these matters.

>How does one separate so-

>called "extreme

>withdrawal syndromes"

>from the reoccurence of

>depression itself in the

>absence of the SSRI's

>effect?

 

This is almost impossible to do

especially if, as the author states,

it is impossible to measure serotonin levels in the brain...

 

Seriously, though,

the increased amount of serotonin may effect an

increased amount of the synthesis of the

natural reuptake molecules after some time,

negating the effect of the medicine.

If this happens, there will be an increased

clearing and increased lack of serotonin,

with concomitant depression.

(A similar effect has been seen with MDA

(ecstacy) which causes depression after long

term usage.)

>> >Cocaine and amphetamines boost all three of the brain's "feel good"

>> >neurotransmitters: serotonin, adrenaline and dopamine.

 

Serotonin and dopamine may in some doses and in

some brain areas very well effect a feel

good sensation.

However, with certain doses, the opposite effect

may be prevalent, also depending on the

other transmitter systems influenced by the

medicine.

This is one reason for the incidents of

increased insomnia and restlessness due to

taking melatonin against insomnia that was a fad

a few years ago.

The issue of transmitter control and

especially control of a general system such

as serotonin is highly complex.

 

Also, as my boss likes to hammer home,

adrenaline is hardly used a transmitter in

the brain. It is a general metabolic

regulator and is more of a hormone that anything

else. It is /noradrenaline/ = norepinphrine

which has other

effects than adrenaline, and which is used as a

central neurotransmitter.

 

 

Love,

 

Amanda.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 04/09/2000 5:19:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

mumblecat writes:

 

<<

Serotonin and dopamine may in some doses and in

some brain areas very well effect a feel

good sensation.

However, with certain doses, the opposite effect

may be prevalent, also depending on the

other transmitter systems influenced by the

medicine.

This is one reason for the incidents of

increased insomnia and restlessness due to

taking melatonin against insomnia that was a fad

a few years ago.

The issue of transmitter control and

especially control of a general system such

as serotonin is highly complex.

>>

As we are going to delve into the chemisty here,

which is I think a very good idea, so that people

have some conceptual framework for understanding,

the point on melatonin is a bit different.

 

As with all hormones, melatonin is made from the

base chemical DHEA. Picture a pyramid, DHEA

is the base, melatonin is much higher up and is made

by the body to help the body sleep. The only substance

known to decrease in direct proportion to someone's

physical age is DHEA. Okay so, now you inject a

hormone and the body thinks "oh, there's enough of

that, I'll stop making that." So, the body quits making

melatonin, and if a person then skips a few days of

melatonin, the result is insomnia.

 

Logic would reason that the rest of the body's hormones

would act in a similar fashion.

 

L*L*L

~ bo ~

[Guest guest]

Namaste` List,

 

I am new here having only lurked for a few days, but I must admit the range

of subjects presented here are all of interest to me as well.

 

I am not a MD, but I have been a counsellor for 20 years, so I have some

experience with the for and against arguments in regard to SSRI's, MAO's

and so on. I realize the need for these drugs in some cases, but as you will

note in the doctor's alerts that I will add to this post, most doctors are only

following the drughouse pamphlets without knowing about the drugs they

are prescribing.

 

The GP that I have been working with over the past 5 years, has more than

twice the knowledge in these areas, than the Psychiatrists that we have been

in conflict with over the issue of SSRI's. We have been trying to assist in the

recovery of a few cases of Post Partum Psychosis, where the medications

were only complicating the problems.

 

If anyone is interested in looking at this site:

 

http://www.mentalhealth.com/fr30.html

 

It is clear in their information on Zoloft etc, that they do not know much

about SSRI's or their actions. I have witnessed 3 cases where psychosis was

contolled with Zyprexa, only to have it break out again when the women were

placed on Zoloft as well. After stopping the Zoloft, the psychosis stopped

again.

 

Anyway, please let me share a few Medical releases first, and I can return to

the other areas again. (If anyone is interested that is)

 

I hope it will be noticed, that the research in India with Tianeptine is

destroying the previously held ideas on SSRI's, but more research is needed

before they take the knowledge public. Instead of inhibitors, they enhanced

the seratonin. This is consistent with the experience that many Naturopaths

have also found, as by increasing the diet with foods that contain seratonin, it

has helped in cases of depression, rather than increase the depression.

 

(Some facts)

 

Complex genetic mechanisms are in place that control when and how a gene

expresses itself. Gene regulation can be

affected by behavior, drugs, environment, and many other factors.

Transmitters which impinge on a cell surface not only

alter the firing pattern of a neuron, but also alter gene expression.

Given the level of complexity, neuroscientist are left

with vast undescribed territories in interface between the structure and

function of the brain and psychiatric disease.

 

In the 9 years since the introduction of the SSRIs, the cost of

pharmaceuticals has jumped to $6.4 billion, and total

costs have soared to between $50 to $60 billion. Given the current era of

managed care and the subsequent pressures on

formularies to contain costs, researchers and health care payers are

compelled to investigate where certain costs can be

reduced while still achieving optimal improvement in patient quality of

life.

 

(Medical Conference in May 1999)

 

Efficacy of Tianeptine in the Treatment of Depressive Disorders: A Study

of 316 Outpatients

Dr. Rajesh Parikh presented data from an open study of tianeptine in 314

patients (2 patients were dropped since the

time the abstract for the presentation was submitted) for the treatment of

depression. Tianeptine is a novel

antidepressant which has been marketed in Europe and which has also been

widely used in Asia, notably India.

Unlike the SSRIs, it has been shown in animal models to enhance the

reuptake of serotonin; it also has an extremely

short half-life, only 2.5 hours. Prior research with tianeptine has

demonstrated that it is equally or more efficacious

relative to other antidepressants [5] and is superior to placebo.[6]

Results from the study were as follows: 53.5% of patients showed a 50% or

greater reduction on the MADRS scale;

52.5% showed a 50% or more reduction on the HARS. There were also no

significant changes in weight or cardiac

profile. Limitations of the study include the facts that the study was

carried out in private practice settings across India

with no inter-rater reliability and that it was an open study (therefore,

it was not possible to assess rates of placebo

response).

If, in fact, tianeptine exerts its antidepressant effects by enhancing the

reuptake of serotonin, it is unclear how this fits

with current, widely held notions about the etiology of depression and the

efficacy of SSRIs, a point raised numerous

times through the course of the presentation. Data regarding tianeptine's

efficacy for depression appear incongruent

with an etiological model of depression which posits that depression

results from decreased serotonergic transmission

at postsynaptic receptors.

 

I hope the above is of interest, as this whole area needs to be explored

further before we start to argue based on false information that has been

spread by drughouses looking for more dollars rather than recovery. I do

agree that until we do know for sure one way or the other, that the use of

SSRI's can help if used on their own and not combined with other drugs.

 

I hope I am not out of order here Harsha, as this area is related to the mind

after all.

 

In the light of sharing,

Shankara.

 

 

 

"The real danger is not that machines will begin to think like

men, but that men will begin to think like machines."

-- Sydney J. Harris

[Guest guest]

---Original Message-----

shankara [shankara]

Sunday, April 09, 2000 5:57 PM

Re: Antidepressant expose

 

snip......snip....

I hope the above is of interest, as this whole area needs to be explored

further before we start to argue based on false information that has been

spread by drughouses looking for more dollars rather than recovery. I do

agree that until we do know for sure one way or the other, that the use of

SSRI's can help if used on their own and not combined with other drugs.

 

I hope I am not out of order here Harsha, as this area is related to the

mind

after all.

 

In the light of sharing,

Shankara.

 

 

Welcome to the list Shankara and thanks for the information. Please feel

free to share your knowledge and views.

Harsha