Guest guest Posted April 9, 2000 Report Share Posted April 9, 2000 On Sun, 9 Apr 2000 11:07:03 GCWein1111 wrote: >mark.otter writes: > > but I think the deeper we went, the more profound the awakening) Pol > Pot, Hitler, Stalin... They are our greatest hits. They are the > sweetest saints because they made the largest changes in self to become > Self. Just a different perspective... I say forgive it all because you ARE it all. I found your thoughts to be reflective of my own, Mark. It is extremely difficult to live this point of view, as the body is fearful of suffering, humiliation and death and prone to feel anger, self righteousness and vengefulness when feelig wronged. We would all like to be able to hit back against those we perceive suppress or hurt us in any way. And probably righfully so, for the body to survive, there must be a sense of separateness from others and a will to avoid dangers. So for a person such as Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot which has added to other ppls sufferings to a great degree, what should be our attitude towards them in hindsight and presence other than anger, vengefulness and hatred ? As I see it, there is always the balance b/n compassion and the need for society to hinder individuals to be destructive for themselves and others. This can be a difficult balance and the ideal balancing point will vary from country to country not to speak of from person to person. However, the boldest, most radical, most inclusive and most difficult stance is that of absolute pacifism, absolute compassion, absolute unconditional love. It is so difficult to do with an honest heart I personally deem it something not at all of this world, something truly divine. When you can look upon even those that truly and deeply wish to and do you and your loved ones with respect and even love, acceptance, one probably has very little to do left on this earth. I personally won't pretend to have developed this sense of love to such a degree, but it is sure, to be able to try and aspire for something like this, knowledge in what a person is and what drives a person is paramount. Without it, the attempts at loving one's enemies as well as friends and family will fail. Jerry wrote: > What makes us think we know anything about the spiritual journeys of >Shri Hitler, etc, when in reality we cannot know about their journeys before >and after they were on earth? We cannot know, thus an extension of respect and equanimity can be just as useful when regarding these mattes as a stance of hostility and unease. > We're all entitled to venture into the >realm of ultimate reality where, for all we know, we and Hitler are one. We >can benefit from going there, and we see spiritual teachers do it all the >time, as has been noted. Isn't this where the problem lies for you Jerry ? You're still unresolved to the matter of spiritual "authorities" and their asking us of do-goodership. >That's fine, so long as we're not using it as a >means to deny and avoid relative reality, where there is so much suffering. These are extreme examples of course. We should all try and love our family, friends, neighbours and co workers more and not worry so much about war criminals and mass murderers, as that is what we have the most problems with. As well as treating our fellow satsanghers with the respect and equanimity they also deserve. However, considering a person such as Hitler or Stalin can be useful as they are presented by all kinds of media as the nadir of human experience, as the worst of the worst. A consideration such as this will be revealing of our own attitudes and in grown expectations / views of what is right and what is wrong. >l just get the feeling >so often that spiritual insights and so called realizations are being used as >a means of denial and avoidance of our present reality with all of its pain. There is also something to consider. Pain is everywhere, including in those in whom we would prefer not to see it, the criminals and the spiritual pundits, the dictators and the misers. As well as in children, sick, animals and what we generally regard as innocent. Doesn't it all become quite an exercise in who we should partition our our sympathy and pity to, ending in yet another gradation b/n those who deserve sympathy and those who does not. A kind of sympathy competition ? I very well know you are going to completely disagree with me Jerry and even send a few sarcastic lines my way, but this is honestly meant. By saying there should be synpathy for some does not necessarily have to exclude sympathy for others. l say, welcome to planet >earth, where we don't confer sainthood on mass murderers. Most people here >are suffering, as once noted by the Buddha. However, Buddha also noted that sympathy and love for ones friends and family but also for one's enemies were of the highest imperative. He didn't say this was easy, though. Yet another fueling of the potential flames.... Om Namah Sivaya (including Sri Hitler, a stern and uncompromising teacher if there ever was one, but one whose lessons were of the first order and obviously still are.) Amanda. Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2000 Report Share Posted April 10, 2000 In a message dated 4/9/00 3:40:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mumblecat writes: << I very well know you are going to completely disagree with me Jerry and even send a few sarcastic lines my way, but this is honestly meant. By saying there should be synpathy for some does not necessarily have to exclude sympathy for others. >> Hello Amanda, Well, you're right that we have a different way of looking at this, but l promise there will be no sarcasm. Hey, me do that? lf l'm going to talk about the importance of kindness, then l have to extend it to those poor creatures who fail to see the wisdom of my posts (oops, excuse me) . Taking your points briefly and in summary form: when l talk about dealing with the Hitler types, l'm not necessarily advocating hatred and hostility toward them, but rather reacting appropriately according to their actions. This means first, a realistic appraisal of the danger involved and second, resistance. lf l walk down the street and pass by a thug mugging an old woman, is it right conduct for me to simply ignore it, assuring myself that hey, the thug and l are one, l am the thug, the thug is l, the thug may be a saint for all l know, etc., so this is none of my business.......? l think most would agree that this is not right conduct, and that l should help to whatever extent l can. Basically, the same principle applies to the Hitlers who are intent on murder and crime on a mass scale. Foreign policy is complicated, of course, involving many practical considerations, but all things being equal, the moral thing to do is to try to come to the assistance of those being victimized. And if it's your own country, you're certainly going to defend yourself. l read once that Gandhi at one time wanted to try the same nonviolent approach against the nazis that had worked with the British, and that Aurobindo basically told him to stick that approach up his ass, assuring him that the nazis were not to be confused with the British. You're a pretty bright lady, Amanda .... l think you'd have enought sense also to be able to discriminate between the British (who were never perfect by any means) and the nazis. Spiritual teachings are wonderful, but most respected teachers have always said that while we're here on earth, our first duty is to respect life: our own and others' also. And the Gita is in line with this. lt says do your duty, fight the battle that has to be fought -- without anger, fear, knowing all are immortal -- the way of the sammurai warrior. Sounds great -- few of us have the skill to fight a battle that way -- so we fight anyway, if we have to, and do our best. l have no problem feeling compassion for the Hitlers if it's arrived at in an authentic way -- if it's TRUE compassion. To me this means first fully comprehending their crimes and the incredible suffering they've caused; in other words, trying to comprehend the incomprehensible -- then feeling this suffering - without defending ourselves against it - and utter compassion for the countless victims, whose numbers can hardly be counted, because a million deaths touch millions more. l think the above is the minimum required and represents an extraordinary act of which few people are capable. lt's alot of shit to wade through, but if you've done it, then maybe you're ready to feel compassion for the Hitlers. lf you haven't done it, then l think the compassion is not real and is masking avoidance, denial and probably deeper problems that underlie that. So it's not that l'm against feeling compassion for Hitler. l just don't trust most of what l've heard as being the real thing. There's another element to this. No matter what someone has done, l can feel at least a twinge of compassion if l either hear or see an act of heartfelt remorse. What act of contrition did we ever see out of the Hitlers? With any of them, l know of no such expression, l know of no side that even reveals human vulnerability, as we think of it. So on what is the compassion based? lt appears to be based more on an abstract principle than on any real experience. This is another reason why l don't trust the compassion professed for Hitler by some. As l alluded to in my last post, in nearly 20 years l've found the process of spiritual bypass to be rampant on the spiritual path. lt's impossible for any of us not to engage in it at some point. Too many of us want to try to act as if we're extraordinary spiritual beings -- empathizing with Hitler, etc -- before we've mastered the art of being ordinary ones. And it causes problems. Very briefly, the last point: l have no problems with spiritual teachers, per se. ln fact, l still love my 2 primary old teachers even tho they caused me 7 yrs of problems with my k. l love them because l believe they were good and kind men who did their best and wanted to help me. l do have a problem with the sort of teachers l ripped in my Jerryananda series, because they promoted themselves like gods and then acted like beasts. l don't mind a teacher having human flaws. l do mind it when they display sub-human flaws. love, jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2000 Report Share Posted April 10, 2000 GCWein1111 <GCWein1111 Monday, April 10, 2000 6:58 PM Re: Sri Hitler snip > > l have no problem feeling compassion for the Hitlers >if it's arrived at in an authentic way -- if it's TRUE compassion. To me this >means first fully comprehending their crimes and the incredible suffering >they've caused; in other words, trying to comprehend the incomprehensible -- >then feeling this suffering - without defending ourselves against it - and >utter compassion for the countless victims, whose numbers can hardly be >counted, because a million deaths touch millions more. l think the above is >the minimum required and represents an extraordinary act of which few people >are capable. lt's alot of shit to wade through, but if you've done it, then >maybe you're ready to feel compassion for the Hitlers. lf you haven't done >it, then l think the compassion is not real and is masking avoidance, denial >and probably deeper problems that underlie that. Dear Jerry, Jerry, you have my deepest thanks for expressing what I am myself too emotional to even put in comprehensible form right now. Any attempt to merely whitewash these issues without facing the reality of this immense suffering seems to dismiss the deaths of millions of innocent people. What is spiritual about that? I think you raised a lot of vital issues which should be included in any discussion, but I am simply not up to it at this time. We have sung the cantata of the Songs of Children two nights in a row after practicing it three times in the past week and my identification with these children and the feelings expressed in their poems is breaking my heart. This goes beyond politics, anti-semitism as a projection of hatred and evil onto a group of people. This is about deliberately starving children and separating them from their mothers to kill them for being useless in the work camps. Who can truly comprehend the magnitude of such evil? Much gratitude to you for your clear thinking, Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2000 Report Share Posted April 11, 2000 It is easy to forgive and feel compassion for Hitler and serial killers.....so easy to see the victim in them.....so much harder to forgive my ex-husband, or my boss when he is "wrong" or usurious in his demands, or the bank teller who spends twenty minutes on the phone when I am in line and late for a VERY IMPORTANT APPOINTMENT, but especially my ex....and yet so much simpler to forgive than to remain in bitterness or hatred or resentment or judgement....so much simpler in the open space of now......Love, Kristi At 12:09 AM 4/11/00 -0400, you wrote: >> snip >> >l have no problem feeling compassion for the Hitlers >> >if it's arrived at in an authentic way -- if it's TRUE compassion. To >> me this >means first fully comprehending their crimes and the >> incredible suffering >they've caused; in other words, trying to >> comprehend the incomprehensible -- >then feeling this suffering - >> without defending ourselves against it - and >> >utter compassion for the countless victims, whose numbers can hardly >> be >counted, because a million deaths touch millions more. l think the >> above is >the minimum required and represents an extraordinary act of >> which few people >are capable. lt's alot of shit to wade through, but >> if you've done it, then >maybe you're ready to feel compassion for the >> Hitlers. lf you haven't done >> >it, then l think the compassion is not real and is masking avoidance, >> denial >and probably deeper problems that underlie that. >> > >I agree. I ask you to share this with me, as one person alone can take a >million lifetimes doing this. I'm prepared. Are you? Nothing less, >nothing more. nothing but love - my new mantra - , and no escape until >it's true with no other thoughts. I don't suggest I've accomplished >this goal, but if you are not willing to make it your goal, too, what >compassion can you lay claim to? Do you do tonglen? Are you prepared to >take on my suffering? Let's dance this one. I've said for years that >what God meant when He said the Jews are the chosen people, that He >meant they would be raised to the heights of forgiveness that the depths >of their persecution requires. Forgiveness takes courage. Anyone ready >to come along? No TRYING to COMPREHEND the incomprehensible, ACCEPTING >the incomprehensible. FORGIVING the incomprehensible. Buttons, >buttons, buttons, they can go on forever. Start taking them apart now > >Love (and more madness than you can see if you can't see the truth of >this...) >Mark >I'm willing to discuss problems all the way down (no bottom)... are you? > > > > > >------ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2000 Report Share Posted April 11, 2000 > snip > >l have no problem feeling compassion for the Hitlers > >if it's arrived at in an authentic way -- if it's TRUE compassion. To > me this >means first fully comprehending their crimes and the > incredible suffering >they've caused; in other words, trying to > comprehend the incomprehensible -- >then feeling this suffering - > without defending ourselves against it - and > >utter compassion for the countless victims, whose numbers can hardly > be >counted, because a million deaths touch millions more. l think the > above is >the minimum required and represents an extraordinary act of > which few people >are capable. lt's alot of shit to wade through, but > if you've done it, then >maybe you're ready to feel compassion for the > Hitlers. lf you haven't done > >it, then l think the compassion is not real and is masking avoidance, > denial >and probably deeper problems that underlie that. > I agree. I ask you to share this with me, as one person alone can take a million lifetimes doing this. I'm prepared. Are you? Nothing less, nothing more. nothing but love - my new mantra - , and no escape until it's true with no other thoughts. I don't suggest I've accomplished this goal, but if you are not willing to make it your goal, too, what compassion can you lay claim to? Do you do tonglen? Are you prepared to take on my suffering? Let's dance this one. I've said for years that what God meant when He said the Jews are the chosen people, that He meant they would be raised to the heights of forgiveness that the depths of their persecution requires. Forgiveness takes courage. Anyone ready to come along? No TRYING to COMPREHEND the incomprehensible, ACCEPTING the incomprehensible. FORGIVING the incomprehensible. Buttons, buttons, buttons, they can go on forever. Start taking them apart now Love (and more madness than you can see if you can't see the truth of this...) Mark I'm willing to discuss problems all the way down (no bottom)... are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2000 Report Share Posted April 11, 2000 Hi Kristie, Mmmm.... yes, and thank you... Hard to forgive myself too! I would be a vainglorious fool if I didn't acknowledge that forgiveness starts at home. and that 's it's by no means trivial. I just think that if we draw lines in the ground and say we refuse to forgive until some condition is met, that we will be in this mess forever. I have no idea who started the Bosnia situation, but it is clear that both sides are perfectly within their rights to be angry at the other. Everyone has lost family members. How will it end? Do we have to wait for some avatar who has experienced all the lives lost on both sides, or can it start in just one open heart and flow outward into receptive hearts on both sides until the conflict ends? Is it naive to hope for this and to encourage it? Then it is naive to think that we can ever find peace. Mmmmm.... I feel like I'm preaching. Seems like a good time to shut up. Love, Mark Kristie Shelloner wrote: > It is easy to forgive and feel compassion for Hitler and serial > killers.....so easy to see the victim in them.....so much harder to > forgive > my ex-husband, or my boss when he is "wrong" or usurious in his > demands, or > the bank teller who spends twenty minutes on the phone when I am in > line and > late for a VERY IMPORTANT APPOINTMENT, but especially my ex....and yet > so > much simpler to forgive than to remain in bitterness or hatred or > resentment > or judgement....so much simpler in the open space of now......Love, > Kristi > > > At 12:09 AM 4/11/00 -0400, you wrote: > >> snip > >> >l have no problem feeling compassion for the Hitlers > >> >if it's arrived at in an authentic way -- if it's TRUE compassion. > To > >> me this >means first fully comprehending their crimes and the > >> incredible suffering >they've caused; in other words, trying to > >> comprehend the incomprehensible -- >then feeling this suffering - > >> without defending ourselves against it - and > >> >utter compassion for the countless victims, whose numbers can > hardly > >> be >counted, because a million deaths touch millions more. l think > the > >> above is >the minimum required and represents an extraordinary act > of > >> which few people >are capable. lt's alot of shit to wade through, > but > >> if you've done it, then >maybe you're ready to feel compassion for > the > >> Hitlers. lf you haven't done > >> >it, then l think the compassion is not real and is masking > avoidance, > >> denial >and probably deeper problems that underlie that. > >> > > > >I agree. I ask you to share this with me, as one person alone can > take a > >million lifetimes doing this. I'm prepared. Are you? Nothing less, > > >nothing more. nothing but love - my new mantra - , and no escape > until > >it's true with no other thoughts. I don't suggest I've accomplished > >this goal, but if you are not willing to make it your goal, too, what > > >compassion can you lay claim to? Do you do tonglen? Are you prepared > to > >take on my suffering? Let's dance this one. I've said for years > that > >what God meant when He said the Jews are the chosen people, that He > >meant they would be raised to the heights of forgiveness that the > depths > >of their persecution requires. Forgiveness takes courage. Anyone > ready > >to come along? No TRYING to COMPREHEND the incomprehensible, > ACCEPTING > >the incomprehensible. FORGIVING the incomprehensible. Buttons, > >buttons, buttons, they can go on forever. Start taking them apart now > > > > >Love (and more madness than you can see if you can't see the truth of > > >this...) > >Mark > >I'm willing to discuss problems all the way down (no bottom)... are > you? > > > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > > > > ----- > > ----- > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the > nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always > Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart > to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the > Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It > Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link > from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change > your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2000 Report Share Posted April 11, 2000 Dear Mark: Yes, easy to forget the pesky little "forgive myself" part........and amen and amen and amen........ Love, Kristi At 01:01 AM 4/11/00 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Kristie, > >Mmmm.... yes, and thank you... Hard to forgive myself too! I would be >a vainglorious fool if I didn't acknowledge that forgiveness starts at >home. and that 's it's by no means trivial. I just think that if we >draw lines in the ground and say we refuse to forgive until some >condition is met, that we will be in this mess forever. I have no idea >who started the Bosnia situation, but it is clear that both sides are >perfectly within their rights to be angry at the other. Everyone has >lost family members. How will it end? Do we have to wait for some >avatar who has experienced all the lives lost on both sides, or can it >start in just one open heart and flow outward into receptive hearts on >both sides until the conflict ends? Is it naive to hope for this and to >encourage it? Then it is naive to think that we can ever find peace. > >Mmmmm.... I feel like I'm preaching. Seems like a good time to shut up. > > > >Love, Mark > >Kristie Shelloner wrote: > >> It is easy to forgive and feel compassion for Hitler and serial >> killers.....so easy to see the victim in them.....so much harder to >> forgive >> my ex-husband, or my boss when he is "wrong" or usurious in his >> demands, or >> the bank teller who spends twenty minutes on the phone when I am in >> line and >> late for a VERY IMPORTANT APPOINTMENT, but especially my ex....and yet >> so >> much simpler to forgive than to remain in bitterness or hatred or >> resentment >> or judgement....so much simpler in the open space of now......Love, >> Kristi >> >> >> At 12:09 AM 4/11/00 -0400, you wrote: >> >> snip >> >> >l have no problem feeling compassion for the Hitlers >> >> >if it's arrived at in an authentic way -- if it's TRUE compassion. >> To >> >> me this >means first fully comprehending their crimes and the >> >> incredible suffering >they've caused; in other words, trying to >> >> comprehend the incomprehensible -- >then feeling this suffering - >> >> without defending ourselves against it - and >> >> >utter compassion for the countless victims, whose numbers can >> hardly >> >> be >counted, because a million deaths touch millions more. l think >> the >> >> above is >the minimum required and represents an extraordinary act >> of >> >> which few people >are capable. lt's alot of shit to wade through, >> but >> >> if you've done it, then >maybe you're ready to feel compassion for >> the >> >> Hitlers. lf you haven't done >> >> >it, then l think the compassion is not real and is masking >> avoidance, >> >> denial >and probably deeper problems that underlie that. >> >> >> > >> >I agree. I ask you to share this with me, as one person alone can >> take a >> >million lifetimes doing this. I'm prepared. Are you? Nothing less, >> >> >nothing more. nothing but love - my new mantra - , and no escape >> until >> >it's true with no other thoughts. I don't suggest I've accomplished >> >this goal, but if you are not willing to make it your goal, too, what >> >> >compassion can you lay claim to? Do you do tonglen? Are you prepared >> to >> >take on my suffering? Let's dance this one. I've said for years >> that >> >what God meant when He said the Jews are the chosen people, that He >> >meant they would be raised to the heights of forgiveness that the >> depths >> >of their persecution requires. Forgiveness takes courage. Anyone >> ready >> >to come along? No TRYING to COMPREHEND the incomprehensible, >> ACCEPTING >> >the incomprehensible. FORGIVING the incomprehensible. Buttons, >> >buttons, buttons, they can go on forever. Start taking them apart now >> >> > >> >Love (and more madness than you can see if you can't see the truth of >> >> >this...) >> >Mark >> >I'm willing to discuss problems all the way down (no bottom)... are >> you? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> ------ >> >> > >> >> ----- >> >> ----- >> // >> >> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >> perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and >> subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not >> different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the >> nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always >> Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart >> to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the >> Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It >> Self. Welcome all to a. >> >> To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at >> www., and select the User Center link >> from the menu bar >> on the left. This menu will also let you change >> your subscription >> between digest and normal mode. >> >> >> > > >------ >You can win $1000! >Time-limited offer. Enter today at: >http://click./1/2864/5/_/520931/_/955428917/ >------ > >// > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > >To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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