Guest guest Posted April 9, 2000 Report Share Posted April 9, 2000 In a message dated 4/6/00 7:04:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mark.otter writes: << I don't know if this will clarify, or if you will think I'm mad, but I think we ALL are Hitler AND Ghandi. The difference in their behaviors is just where they are on this journey called life on Earth. (Hilter is an early form of Ghandi) It's my belief (and only that) that we are on journeys of self-discovery which require that we forget our ideas of ourselves, enter as far as we can stand (even further for some...) into forgetfulness, darkness, evil, what ever you wish to call it. Then in some forgotten moment that will be so profound as we witness our full movies later, we decide to turn around and walk back to God, to ourselves. What is the net result? Is it just a hide and seek game? I don't think so. I think it's BEING what we only THOUGHT we could be before. It's a new game. It's not just diversion. It is truly growth that has not been seen before. (Perhaps I am just a dreamer, or a fool, but I think the deeper we went, the more profound the awakening) Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin... They are our greatest hits. They are the sweetest saints because they made the largest changes in self to become Self. Just a different perspective... from somewhere around midpoint in the journey back. I say forgive it all because you ARE it all. Analysis is fun, but loving it is worthwhile. (sorry I sound preachy. I mean to sound peachy) After considering this, l'd like to share a few thoughts of my own -- not necessarily directed primarily at you, Mark, as the author of this post -- just generally. What makes us think we know anything about the spiritual journeys of Shri Hitler, etc, when in reality we cannot know about their journeys before and after they were on earth? Are insights such as the above useful or are they more likely to be confusing and counter-productive, taking us further away from the truth? We're all entitled to venture into the realm of ultimate reality where, for all we know, we and Hitler are one. We can benefit from going there, and we see spiritual teachers do it all the time, as has been noted. That's fine, so long as we're not using it as a means to deny and avoid relative reality, where there is so much suffering. l don't know you, Mark, and will not speculate as to what your little exercise means for you. l can say it didn't do anything for me. l just get the feeling so often that spiritual insights and so called realizations are being used as a means of denial and avoidance of our present reality with all of its pain. And l sense that this is more confusing than it is helpful. This is what l think works much better: The TV show "Nightline" recently showed how those still mourning in Littleton found great solace after being visited by a holocaust death camp survivor. She didn't visit them as a teacher bringing high realizations and esoteric spiritual truths, which those interviewed later said was the last thing they needed. She shared their suffering at the deepest level, she revealed a beautiful spirit unbroken and still intact in spite of the horrors of the holocaust, and in doing so gave the people of Littleton inspiration and hope. Of course, few of us are survivors of the holocaust --- but we are all survivors with our own truths to share. So l say, welcome to planet earth, where we don't confer sainthood on mass murderers. Most people here are suffering, as once noted by the Buddha. They're suffering as victims of political and personal crimes, natural disasters, poverty, terrible parents, you name it ... The question is, how can we help? And for the answer, each of us has to make our own choice. The longer l travel on my path, the more convinced l am that the above example of Littleton provides the best model. lt's not the easiest, the most ego-gratifying or most glamorous ... but simply the one that truly helps. love, jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2000 Report Share Posted April 9, 2000 Dear Jerry, Thank you so much. I float ideas now and then to see how I feel about them myself. This particular idea is one I spend a lot of time with, but it may well be that I do so from a sense of guilt, and the fantasy that my unskillful behavior will be rewarded somehow. I also see it as being an advocate for forgiveness of everyone, regardless of the mess. The point I was suggesting is that all is God, and everything is forgiven. As in the story of the prodigal son, there is much joy when that which is lost is refound. Perhaps there is equal joy when anything even slightly lost is found. Perhaps there is greater joy when something VERY lost is found. I see the relief of a minor misinterpretation being corrected as a mild relief, and that of a major illusion as a bigger joy... Yes, that may be mad. My brother was diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic when he was 17 (I was 12), so madness is a theme and wrenching object of meditation. (I think he was suffering from an affective disorder and was misdiagnosed, with terrible consequences, but who knows? I asked Emmanual (channelled by Pat Rodegast) how I might help my brother, and the response was (as I boil it down), you've already helped by opening your heart, so find peace in that. I really needed to hear that. I say let's open our hearts to Hitler, etc, as (I believe), they thought what they were doing was "right". Misperceptions can be a big problem. I say never know what is right or wrong, but look at it all closely and let our hearts decide moment by moment. I say if we are not sure of relative truth, ask some one we love and respect what they think. I asked the list, and got this reply. Yum. I like it and will look at it closely to see if I want to replace the idea I expressed by it. I probably will find an amalgam of my posted view and the reply, and float it again sometime. What do I know? I know I appreciate the response, and I'm grateful that I may post such deep concerns of mine and get such deep responses. Love, Mark GCWein1111 wrote: > In a message dated 4/6/00 7:04:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > mark.otter writes: > > << > > I don't know if this will clarify, or if you will think I'm mad, but I > > think we ALL are Hitler AND Ghandi. The difference in their behaviors > > is just where they are on this journey called life on Earth. (Hilter > is > an early form of Ghandi) It's my belief (and only that) that we are > on > journeys of self-discovery which require that we forget our ideas of > ourselves, enter as far as we can stand (even further for some...) > into > forgetfulness, darkness, evil, what ever you wish to call it. Then in > > some forgotten moment that will be so profound as we witness our full > movies later, we decide to turn around and walk back to God, to > ourselves. What is the net result? Is it just a hide and seek game? > I > don't think so. I think it's BEING what we only THOUGHT we could be > before. It's a new game. It's not just diversion. It is truly > growth > that has not been seen before. (Perhaps I am just a dreamer, or a > fool, > but I think the deeper we went, the more profound the awakening) Pol > Pot, Hitler, Stalin... They are our greatest hits. They are the > sweetest saints because they made the largest changes in self to > become > Self. Just a different perspective... from somewhere around midpoint > in > the journey back. I say forgive it all because you ARE it all. > Analysis is fun, but loving it is worthwhile. (sorry I sound preachy. > > I mean to sound peachy) > > > > After considering this, l'd like to share a few thoughts of my own > -- not > necessarily directed primarily at you, Mark, as the author of this > post -- > just generally. > > What makes us think we know anything about the spiritual > journeys of > Shri Hitler, etc, when in reality we cannot know about their journeys > before > and after they were on earth? Are insights such as the above useful or > are > they more likely to be confusing and counter-productive, taking us > further > away from the truth? > We're all entitled to venture into > the > realm of ultimate reality where, for all we know, we and Hitler are > one. We > can benefit from going there, and we see spiritual teachers do it all > the > time, as has been noted. That's fine, so long as we're not using it as > a > means to deny and avoid relative reality, where there is so much > suffering. l > don't know you, Mark, and will not speculate as to what your little > exercise > means for you. l can say it didn't do anything for me. l just get the > feeling > so often that spiritual insights and so called realizations are being > used as > a means of denial and avoidance of our present reality with all of > its pain. > And l sense that this is more confusing than it is helpful. > > This is what l think works much > better: The > TV show "Nightline" recently showed how those still mourning in > Littleton > found great solace after being visited by a holocaust death camp > survivor. > She didn't visit them as a teacher bringing high realizations and > esoteric > spiritual truths, which those interviewed later said was the last > thing they > needed. She shared their suffering at the deepest level, she revealed > a > beautiful spirit unbroken and still intact in spite of the horrors of > the > holocaust, and in doing so gave the people of Littleton inspiration > and hope. > Of course, few of us are survivors of the holocaust --- but we are all > > survivors with our own truths to share. > So l say, welcome to > planet > earth, where we don't confer sainthood on mass murderers. Most people > here > are suffering, as once noted by the Buddha. They're suffering as > victims of > political and personal crimes, natural disasters, poverty, terrible > parents, > you name it ... The question is, how can we help? And for the answer, > each of > us has to make our own choice. The longer l travel on my path, the > more > convinced l am that the above example of Littleton provides the best > model. > lt's not the easiest, the most ego-gratifying or most glamorous ... > but > simply the one that truly helps. > love, > jerry > ----- > > ----- > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the > nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always > Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart > to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the > Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It > Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link > from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change > your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2000 Report Share Posted April 10, 2000 Beautiful, Jerry! > So l say, welcome to planet >earth, where we don't confer sainthood on mass murderers. Most people here >are suffering, as once noted by the Buddha. They're suffering as victims of >political and personal crimes, natural disasters, poverty, terrible parents, >you name it ... The question is, how can we help? And for the answer, each of >us has to make our own choice. The longer l travel on my path, the more >convinced l am that the above example of Littleton provides the best model. >lt's not the easiest, the most ego-gratifying or most glamorous ... but >simply the one that truly helps. > > love, > > jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2000 Report Share Posted April 10, 2000 In a message dated 4/9/00 7:46:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mark.otter writes: << Dear Jerry, Thank you so much. I float ideas now and then to see how I feel about them myself. This particular idea is one I spend a lot of time with, but it may well be that I do so from a sense of guilt, and the fantasy that my unskillful behavior will be rewarded somehow. I also see it as being an advocate for forgiveness >> Dear Mark, l am profoundly moved by your ability to accept what l had to say without feeling anger or defensiveness, but rather with an open mind and heart. This says a great deal about you and is a teaching for all of us. love, jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2000 Report Share Posted April 10, 2000 Hi Jerry, Thanks for the vote of confidence. I didn't see this message until I had posted a response to the prior message of yours. I do indeed wish to advocate forgiveness. It seems to help, and so I incorporate it whenever I can see it as an option. From here, it seems to take practice. I wonder what it will be like when forgiveness and love are the only response... Mmmmm! Love, Mark GCWein1111 wrote: > In a message dated 4/9/00 7:46:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > mark.otter writes: > > << > Dear Jerry, > > Thank you so much. I float ideas now and then to see how I feel about > > them myself. This particular idea is one I spend a lot of time with, > but it may well be that I do so from a sense of guilt, and the fantasy > > that my unskillful behavior will be rewarded somehow. I also see it > as > being an advocate for forgiveness >> > > Dear Mark, > l am profoundly moved by your ability to accept what l had to > say > without feeling anger or defensiveness, but rather with an open mind > and > heart. This says a great deal about you and is a teaching for all of > us. > > > love, > > jerry > > ----- > [Automatic, Safe, Reliable Backups and Restores] > ----- > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the > nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always > Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart > to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the > Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It > Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link > from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change > your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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