morality & ethics

[Guest guest]

Hi Roger and all,

 

I find your reasoning and expression to be

very clear as well as interesting.

 

I do hope I can be able to express my own

thoughts on this subject as clearly

as you present these very important

questions.

 

I don't really have any set answers to your

questions, I think they are part of the

spiritual path and must be answered by each

individual, not on a theoretical level,

but on a practical and last but not leastly

on a personal level.

But I can at least try and present my own

considerations on this subject.

 

To reiterate, you wrote:

>Where specifically is the boundary where moral & ethical consideration can

>be dropped?

 

This is a very difficult question.

To me, it seems that when there is no longer

body consciousness and one is permanently

established in this state, which may or may

not equal to full awakening, morals and

ethics will no longer be a question, nor

do ideas of virtue and sin apply.

 

The only way I can explain why I think so is

that the body itself takes care of itself

in a very automatic way it seems.

Thus I have a hard time seeing that

the body when there is no subjective thinker

left in it (Elvis has really left the building,

for good and he didn't leave by chopper)

there can be few ideas of desire and violence.

The body is just a shell, supported by its

former impulses and existing on a minimal

amount of desire and

and these may very well burn out after some time.

I also belive in this state, the body will

not always worry about being violated itself,

as the mind is not there, nor the I thought

and thus there is no fear of death and no fear

of being harmed.

And there is no one to be harmed and no one to

harm, all things are and all things are not.

I can't express it very well and my body

unconsciousness is not very well established

at all, but this is what it feels like.

It can't be described and I see I am at

a total loss for doing it.

The only thing I can say is that what the

sages say is true, there is no one

doing anything. In the field of impersonal

energy, there are no crimes committed.

 

In this state, as I have said, morals and

ethics are no longer very important and

what happens happens without there being

any ideas of consideration of right or

wrong.

 

However, I also feel somewhat that the

idea of morals and ethics, of sins and

virtues may be loosened before this time

of loss of body consciousness.

Because in some way, a loosening of

past perceivements and ideas, ingrown

views that make the personality stiff and

inflexible is what is needed to surrender

enough for the body consciousness to

become loosened and perhaps also to

finally go.

We have a lot of perceived views and ideas

that we hide behind and which hinders us

from surrendering completely.

 

This may be one reason why different

traditions emphasize the consideration of

morals and ethics differently, as in

the example of zen Buddhism and Tibetan

Buddhism, who are both non dual teachings

but have semingly very different views on

what moral and ethics are and their importance

on the spiritual path.

 

Let me suggest that it is perhaps the idea of

there being a universal ethic outside that

of unconditional love,

that there is a universal moral that is

applicable for all situations and all humans

and all cultures that must go.

That we must see and realize that our ideas

and thoughts, including those of

morals and ethics come from our societies

and inherently from some place or someone there.

That traditions and ways and thoughts are not

our true selves.

 

However, as Patanjali suggests, even though this

knowldge of the true self should be firmly

embedded in us, the knowledge that morals and

ethics are very much variable from era and

place and person to person, we should

however respect and live by

those that are in effect in the

society we live in, in the house we live or

the church / temple we visit, the ppl

we meet on a daily basis.

 

In many ways, I think that when desires have

been lessened through spiritual

practice, the desire to break the law for

financial gain or to breal the existing

codes for law and conduct for personal

gratification have also lessened.

That willingness to surrender to the deity

/ tradition / teaching

also equals a willingness to surrender

to morals and also the views and

sensibilities of other ppl go hand in hand.

There is a process of the softening of the

heart that happens equally with the

softening of the perceivements of the mind.

>If we claim to be above the law (moral or legal law), how would we know if

>this attitude is premature?

 

Perhaps the ultimate judge of that must be

society and the ppl surrounding the

spiritual practitioner.

For the spiritual practitioner, the

perceivements of others should matter less

after a certain point, so if he as in the

zen story is wrongly accused of a crime, he

would not view the accusers with a hard heart

but accept the accusations, as well as their

laws.

 

These are my perceivements, however limited and

personal on this particular topic.

 

 

Love,

 

Amanda.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

[Guest guest]

mumble cat <mumblecat

Amanda wrote on morality & ethics:

> I do hope I can be able to express my own

> thoughts on this subject as clearly

> as you present these very important

> questions.

>....

 

thanks for your thoughts, Amanda.

Purring....

 

Roger