Can't take it/ Rob

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/11/00 11:21:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

Robert_Weil writes:

 

<<

I'm sorry, Glo, if what I've just said has pained you further. However, I

lived this gothic reality for about eight years, from 9 years to 17 years

old, in both normal and altered states of mind. God knows why it was so

important for me in this life. Maybe I had some payback coming from a past

life. Who knows? All I know is that pain is inflicted in a multitude of

ways, and death exists in life. What importance do any of us really have,

in our egos, our sense of our national importance, our sense of any self

worth, if it can be beaten out of us so readily? *Who* survives the pain?

And what is learned? To see the finality of death for so many,and realise

how easy it is to come about, what can we do but try to recognise the way

it happens, and avoid it in ourselves? That is all I know.

 

Hello Rob,

Well, ha ha, l must say l enjoyed reading this post far more than

your other one on Sri Hitler (some of which l disagreed with, but will not

respond to because that thread feels like it's closed). l do appreciate your

sharing this background info about your father and your own painful

childhood. Yes, it seems just a bit unfair that a son whose father had to

flee persecution for being Jewish was at the same time being persecuted for

being German -- talk about getting it at both ends!!! Unreal. What pain

you must have gone through. And for so long. And look how well you've turned

out!

 

My father was a Jewish doctor, mother was a protestant nurse (Guess where

they met? Would you believe a hospital? ) -- and our last name was (is)

Weinstein, so we were always considered Jewish, altho my father was too busy

with his patients to care about our religious upbringing. Growing up in the

50's l met with alot of anti-semitism, both then and in later years.

Fortunately, l never had to deal with your traumas, and my situation didn't

begin to compare with yours. l never really practiced Judaism; it was always

meaningful to me more in the sense of being the religion of my father's

family and so much of my heritage. l had several Jewish relatives, including

German and Russian Jewish grandparents who'd been Americans since well

before WW2.

 

Coming from a mixed background left me feeling insecure religiously, but l

think it helped me to be able to look at religious and other issues from both

sides. l used to argue vigorously with my Jewish friends about lsrael's

foreign policy,with which l generally disagreed. l never held any grudges

against Germany, loved to travel there and adored German composers. (How

could you not, given that nearly all the great ones were German/Austrian? Yet

lssac Stern wouldn't perform there...) And l never associated German soldiers

with Hitler or deluded myself into believing that all of the evil is ever

contained on one side or in one person.

l say

this because l'm aware my posts may give the impression to some that l see

these questions in black and white or in one dimension. lt's not so. What l

seem to constantly find myself doing -- whether it's the k list or this list

-- is living my questions, my not knowing. l guess that's why l pulled the

above passage out of your post. lt was the part l found the most moving. This

passage speaks to me about the uniquely human condition of living with not

only so much pain, but so many questions that both arise from the pain and

become inseparable from it. l used to hope l'd find the answers to them on my

path. Maybe l will -- maybe the questions are answering themselves and

becoming less important with my scarcely realizing it.

But l remain in an

"only don't know" posture in the present -- not that of a zen master, because

l REALLY don't know :). And l'm afraid that makes me a nuisance sometimes

when realizations are proclaimed. l longed for realizations for so long and

surely thought k would bring them. lnstead l've been left with ordinary

reality -- maybe after so long l'm opening my eyes more to this experience.

The longer l'm here the more l value just sharing the suffering and truth of

others -- not teaching, advising, transcending or anything else that would

elevate me beyond them, but just wanting to feel and share their truth,

unmasked, without any spiritual jargon. So thanx for that... for your truth

and your questions.

 

love,

jerry

>>

[Guest guest]

At 19:12 12/04/00 EDT, you wrote:

>In a message dated 4/11/00 11:21:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

>Robert_Weil writes:

>

><<

> I'm sorry, Glo, if what I've just said has pained you further. However, I

> lived this gothic reality for about eight years, from 9 years to 17 years

> old, in both normal and altered states of mind. God knows why it was so

> important for me in this life. Maybe I had some payback coming from a past

> life. Who knows? All I know is that pain is inflicted in a multitude of

> ways, and death exists in life. What importance do any of us really have,

> in our egos, our sense of our national importance, our sense of any self

> worth, if it can be beaten out of us so readily? *Who* survives the pain?

> And what is learned? To see the finality of death for so many,and realise

> how easy it is to come about, what can we do but try to recognise the way

> it happens, and avoid it in ourselves? That is all I know.

>

> Hello Rob,

> Well, ha ha, l must say l enjoyed reading this post far more than

>your other one on Sri Hitler (some of which l disagreed with, but will not

>respond to because that thread feels like it's closed).

 

Hi Jerry,

 

Scuse the tardy reply, I have to work inbetween posts... I hope to get

back to this next week (away until then), but time flies, I know...

 

Interesting, Jerry, that it was a matter of enjoyment... Not quite sure

where you're coming from there... Is it my style, or your perception? Both?

Seriously tho', don't mind your disgreements and was hoping for an

exchange, but I agree the thread has sort of run its course. Some other

time perhaps...

 

Anyway...

 

l do appreciate your

>sharing this background info about your father and your own painful

>childhood. Yes, it seems just a bit unfair that a son whose father had to

>flee persecution for being Jewish was at the same time being persecuted for

>being German -- talk about getting it at both ends!!! Unreal.

 

Real, but ironic. Told me much about the dissociation of a nation's

psyche...

 

What pain

>you must have gone through. And for so long. And look how well you've turned

>out!

 

Thanks, I think. I am just me, and there's plenty of ppl who'd feel you are

overstating the case! )

 

It's not that important to me, because I've met ppl who deserve your

compliments more than me. For instance, I'm not spending my spare time

rehearsing scores for a highly emotive work, going through pain to achieve

it, for the sake of the principle.

 

> My father was a Jewish doctor, mother was a protestant nurse (Guess where

>they met? Would you believe a hospital? ) -- and our last name was (is)

>Weinstein, so we were always considered Jewish, altho my father was too busy

>with his patients to care about our religious upbringing.

 

Interesting comparison, and when I have more time, I'll discuss

upbringings... ) Right now, I'd like to zero in on the purpose of the

reply...

 

snip>

>Coming from a mixed background left me feeling insecure religiously, but l

>think it helped me to be able to look at religious and other issues from both

>sides. l used to argue vigorously with my Jewish friends about lsrael's

>foreign policy,with which l generally disagreed. l never held any grudges

>against Germany, loved to travel there and adored German composers. (How

>could you not, given that nearly all the great ones were German/Austrian? Yet

>lssac Stern wouldn't perform there...) And l never associated German soldiers

>with Hitler or deluded myself into believing that all of the evil is ever

>contained on one side or in one person.

 

Yes, that's one that used to come up for me too. I know of several Germans

who fought in the war, who know they were wrong to do it but had little

choice: they had loved ones at home and they wanted to survive.

> l say

>this because l'm aware my posts may give the impression to some that l see

>these questions in black and white or in one dimension. lt's not so. What l

>seem to constantly find myself doing -- whether it's the k list or this list

>-- is living my questions, my not knowing.

 

Yes, I've seen that, Jerry, and that for me makes it possible to write in

and share my own uncertainties. Despite my wordy posts, it's not easy for

me to share stuff

 

l guess that's why l pulled the

>above passage out of your post. lt was the part l found the most moving. This

>passage speaks to me about the uniquely human condition of living with not

>only so much pain, but so many questions that both arise from the pain and

>become inseparable from it.

 

IMO, hard to do otherwise, as a self-conscious being. If the instigators of

the pain could see the questions, then maybe they too would learn something

useful...

 

May I just say here, that I am sure there are more men around who have

suffered abuse, and yet feel they can't talk about it because as a man they

"should" handle it, get over it, whatever. It's a blank area in the

terrain of pain...

 

l used to hope l'd find the answers to them on my

>path. Maybe l will -- maybe the questions are answering themselves and

>becoming less important with my scarcely realizing it.

 

I like that: I prefer to let things naturally evolve, to show their way to

me as I go.

> But l remain in an

>"only don't know" posture in the present -- not that of a zen master, because

>l REALLY don't know :).

 

Me too. But I think, Jerry, you may, as I do sometimes, be abdicating your

sense of knowing what you feel thus far because the definitive answer is

ungraspable? Does that make sense?

 

And l'm afraid that makes me a nuisance sometimes

>when realizations are proclaimed. l longed for realizations for so long and

>surely thought k would bring them. lnstead l've been left with ordinary

>reality -- maybe after so long l'm opening my eyes more to this experience.

 

Someone else I know is going through just that experience at the mo'!

Perhaps it's a step on the way?

>The longer l'm here the more l value just sharing the suffering and truth of

>others -- not teaching, advising, transcending or anything else that would

>elevate me beyond them, but just wanting to feel and share their truth,

>unmasked, without any spiritual jargon. So thanx for that... for your truth

>and your questions.

 

Thank you, Jerry! I will do my best to be honest to you. If I seem a bit

preachy, it's becaus I haven't yet found a way to have an opinion/pov

without making it into a statement. My attitude remains that I don't have a

hotline to the truth. I am learning so much from your discussions with

others and from everyone.

 

Love

 

Rob

 

 

>

> love,

> jerry