Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 Dear Mark, Reading your posts is always very interesting and uplifting. You talk about difficult things with such ease and such an amazing amount of gentle self forgiveness and openness, I find myself wishing I had half of it. Fortunately, I reckon your fearlessnes for the reactions of yourself and other can't but rub off on us as well. A few (as usual, jumbled) comments. On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:53:11 Mark W. Otter >went and >asked for forgiveness, received it, felt the balloon of separation part >(oh sweet relief...), and bottled a little bit of the unprocessed anger >into my body because there was no other place for it. I feel this is something which is extremely easy to do. We ask for forgivenes out of fear of being left alone, and leave traces of the old anger, as well as the resentment for having to ask for forgiveness in the first place, in our bodies. The later it comes back with a vengeance, either as anger problems in connection with parents or as other kinds of aches and pains in the physical body. To me there seems to be a labyrinth of I hurt you and you hurt me on the emotional and personal plane that is extremely difficult to get out of. It's extremely difficult to admit hurt emotions because this leaves you open to more hurt, which is exactly what we don't want to experience. To me, the conquering of the fear of being hurt is a very intergral part of ahimsa. Without trying to develop or having developed less fear of being hurt, of admitting, of not hiding behind anger and backlashing and accusations and self pity and sarcasm and self righteousness and all the other things we do hide behind when feeling hurt, the idea of ahimsa is left empty. Ahimsa to me means first and foremost to not be afraid of being hurt by others, and still try to view those who hurt you with equanimity. If not love. This is extremely difficult and I'm not going to pretend I'm there myself. >use this wonderful list with it's fellow seekers and >it's realized beings to peel back what is happening with you Yes, one good way of revealing past hurts and angers is as you say to get the buttons pushed and let it all come up again. Yet this needs a gentle environment where one can feel boundaries will be respected and where others won't hide behind their own hurt and turn it all into a spinning vortex of accusations and defensiveness. As we have all seen on this list, once someone is fearless enough to start opening up and admit attachment to certain issues and being hurt by others' reactions to it, then others will also start opening up and be able to see their own hurt. I for one admire both Rob, Gloria and you for being fearless enough starting this process. It is with shame I watch my own issues of defensiveness and old hurt. >I didn't really want to leave the list, and all the requests not to >leave and the pats on the back were something I wanted and felt a need >for. It was deserved. We all deserve a pat on the back. If it something this life has taught me, and as Annie reminded us of, we all do the best we can with what we have been given. To me, human existence is built on energy trying to find itself a way back to god, everyhing we say and do is an expression of this, both love and hatred and everything which is inbetween. >(that you had a wonderful place in a list that made you happy >and by poking around in my issues in a public place, I was ruining your >place, which you had first, and I came into like a bull in a china >shop.) Poking around in issues is bound to touch the issues of other ppl, as there seems to me to always be lots of common issues. Letting go is difficult. It means being vulnerable to everyone and everything and this is scary. Thanks again for showing us fearlessness. Love, Amanda. Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 In a message dated 4/13/00 9:00:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mumblecat writes: << I feel this is something which is extremely easy to do. We ask for forgivenes out of fear of being left alone, and leave traces of the old anger, as well as the resentment for having to ask for forgiveness in the first place, in our bodies. The later it comes back with a vengeance, either as anger problems in connection with parents or as other kinds of aches and pains in the physical body. >> l found this post very insightful and thought provoking, Amanda, and will likely be re-reading it myself! love, jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 Mmmm, dear Amanda, thank you. this is very well expressed, kind, and right on from here. I'm going to reread it several times before making any more response than that because I need to absorb it and I also want to curb my tendency to reflex-responses. Have a lovely day, Mark P.S. I love the pen name mumble cat, where did it come from, if it's a story you are willing to tell? mumble cat wrote: > > Dear Mark, > > Reading your posts is always very > interesting and uplifting. > You talk about difficult things with such > ease and such an amazing amount of > gentle self forgiveness and openness, > I find myself wishing I had half of it. > Fortunately, I reckon your fearlessnes > for the reactions of yourself and other > can't but rub off on us as well. > > A few (as usual, jumbled) comments. > > On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:53:11 Mark W. Otter > > >went and > >asked for forgiveness, received it, felt the balloon of separation > part > >(oh sweet relief...), and bottled a little bit of the unprocessed > anger > >into my body because there was no other place for it. > > I feel this is something which is extremely > easy to do. > We ask for forgivenes out of fear of being > left alone, and leave traces of the old anger, > as well as the resentment for having to > ask for forgiveness in the first place, > in our bodies. > The later it comes back with a vengeance, > either as anger problems in connection with > parents or as other kinds of aches and > pains in the physical body. > > To me there seems to be a labyrinth of > I hurt you and you hurt me > on the emotional and personal plane that is > extremely difficult to get out of. > It's extremely difficult to admit hurt > emotions because this leaves you > open to more hurt, which is exactly what we > don't want to experience. > > To me, the conquering of the fear of being > hurt is a very intergral part of ahimsa. > Without trying to develop or having developed > less fear of being hurt, of admitting, > of not hiding behind anger and backlashing > and accusations and self pity and sarcasm > and self righteousness > and all the other > things we do hide behind when feeling hurt, > the idea of ahimsa is left empty. > > Ahimsa to me means first and foremost to > not be afraid of being > hurt by others, and still try to view those > who hurt you with equanimity. If not love. > > This is extremely difficult and I'm not going > to pretend I'm there myself. > > >use this wonderful list with it's fellow seekers and > >it's realized beings to peel back what is happening with you > > Yes, one good way of revealing past hurts > and angers is as you say to get the buttons > pushed and let it all come up again. > Yet this needs a gentle environment > where one can feel boundaries will be > respected and where others won't hide > behind their own hurt and turn it all > into a spinning vortex of accusations and > defensiveness. > > As we have all seen on this list, once someone > is fearless enough to start opening up > and admit attachment to certain issues and > being hurt by others' reactions to it, > then others will also start opening up > and be able to see their own hurt. > > I for one admire both Rob, Gloria and > you for being fearless enough starting this process. > It is with shame I watch my own issues of > defensiveness and old hurt. > > >I didn't really want to leave the list, and all the requests not to > >leave and the pats on the back were something I wanted and felt a > need > >for. > > It was deserved. > We all deserve a pat on the back. > > If it something this life has taught me, > and as Annie reminded us of, > we all do the best we can with what we > have been given. > To me, human existence is built on energy > trying to find itself a way back to god, > everyhing we say and do is an expression > of this, both love and hatred and everything > which is inbetween. > > >(that you had a wonderful place in a list that made you happy > >and by poking around in my issues in a public place, I was ruining > your > >place, which you had first, and I came into like a bull in a china > >shop.) > > Poking around in issues is bound to touch the > issues of other ppl, as there > seems to me to always be > lots of common issues. > > Letting go is difficult. > It means being vulnerable to > everyone and everything > and this is scary. > > Thanks again for showing us fearlessness. > > Love, > > Amanda. > > > > > Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com > ----- > > ----- > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the > nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always > Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart > to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the > Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It > Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link > from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change > your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2000 Report Share Posted April 13, 2000 Hi mumble cat, mumble cat wrote: > > Dear Mark, > > Reading your posts is always very interesting and uplifting. You talk > about difficult things with such ease and such an amazing amount of > gentle self forgiveness and openness, I find myself wishing I had half > of it. Fortunately, I reckon your fearlessness for the reactions of > yourself and other can't but rub off on us as well. thank you. I consider this high praise and will seek to earn it more and more deeply as I travel on through life. Mmmmm... feels nice. I'm learning to hear this kind of stuff and it feels wonderful to just let nice words sink in and comfort me without requiring them to stir me up, either to rejection or inflation. > A few (as usual, jumbled) comments. > > On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:53:11 Mark W. Otter > > >went and > >asked for forgiveness, received it, felt the balloon of separation > part > >(oh sweet relief...), and bottled a little bit of the unprocessed > anger > >into my body because there was no other place for it. > > I feel this is something which is extremely easy to do. We ask for > forgiveness out of fear of being left alone, and leave traces of the > old anger, as well as the resentment for having to ask for forgiveness > in the first place, in our bodies. Yes, I do this a lot, but I'm learning that I can be alone and be comfortable. Nonetheless, to move into greater apparent separation by having conflict with people is certainly uncomfortable, and I tend to want to go rushing back and take on all the responsibility for conflicts to bring them to an end, and later (some other part oif my personality?) I resent having done that if it was not fair. I can get REALLY angry over this one. Guess I've played that game a lot and built up a lot of that energy. Another part of my disengagement game, I think. I assume that I will have to accept the blame for situations where some of the blame may lie elsewhere, and get resentful of that long before anyone has a chance to either shoulder their fair share of the responsibility or not. Ever have your apology rudely refused before you even try to give it? I've done that often enough. I need to notice that assumption rising and reassess my response to it. I react even more strongly to situations where I really was the primary offender. Hits closer to home I guess... So when I really feel I should take the blame and apologize, there is sometimes a misplaced anger about the "misjustice". I think that's inflated ego that thinks it never makes a mistake, so mistakes are sacriledge (did I spell that right? prolly not...) > The later it comes back with a vengeance, > either as anger problems in connection with > parents or as other kinds of aches and > pains in the physical body. Yes, and the aches and pains can appear completely unrelated and really puzzle us. > > > To me there seems to be a labyrinth of I hurt you and you hurt me > on the emotional and personal plane that is extremely difficult to get > out of. It's extremely difficult to admit hurt emotions because this > leaves you > open to more hurt, which is exactly what we don't want to experience. Yes. And you can't just fly up and out, you have to walk the walk and be willing to get lost again and again.... > > > To me, the conquering of the fear of being hurt is a very intergral > part of ahimsa. Without trying to develop or having developed less > fear of being hurt, of admitting, of not hiding behind anger and > backlashing > and accusations and self pity and sarcasm and self righteousness > and all the other things we do hide behind when feeling hurt, the idea > of ahimsa is left empty. I think this is a very deep wisdom. The cause of the harm we do others is the defense we've erected against being harmed. To be harmless, we must also be defenseless. Yes. > > > Ahimsa to me means first and foremost to not be afraid of being > hurt by others, and still try to view those who hurt you with > equanimity. If not love. > This is extremely difficult and I'm not going to pretend I'm there > myself. Me either, but isn't it wonderful to be able to see if from here? Yum! (even if only in fitful glances...) > > > >use this wonderful list with it's fellow seekers and > >it's realized beings to peel back what is happening with you > > Yes, one good way of revealing past hurts > and angers is as you say to get the buttons > pushed and let it all come up again. > Yet this needs a gentle environment > where one can feel boundaries will be > respected and where others won't hide > behind their own hurt and turn it all > into a spinning vortex of accusations and > defensiveness. Yes, there is a balance between the environment being dangerous enough to push the buttons and safe enough to contain the consequences. This has been for me (in a short time) a good place for both. Thank you ALL!!! > > > As we have all seen on this list, once someone is fearless enough to > start opening up and admit attachment to certain issues and being hurt > by others' reactions to it, then others will also start opening up and > be able to see their own hurt. By taking refuge in the Dharma, I share refuge in the Sangha. > > > I for one admire both Rob, Gloria and > you for being fearless enough starting this process. > It is with shame I watch my own issues of > defensiveness and old hurt. > So let the shame well up and look at it, and if it no longer serves you, do whatever it takes to dismantle it. Again, for me, seeing it, experiencing it deeply and thoroughly, seeking the root causes, noticing if the root causes still exist, and if they don't, dropping the old habit seems to work (at least some of the time - perhaps when I am willing to commit to them and do the work.) > > >I didn't really want to leave the list, and all the requests not to > >leave and the pats on the back were something I wanted and felt a > need > >for. > > It was deserved. > We all deserve a pat on the back. thanks > > > If it something this life has taught me, > and as Annie reminded us of, > we all do the best we can with what we > have been given. > To me, human existence is built on energy > trying to find itself a way back to god, > everyhing we say and do is an expression > of this, both love and hatred and everything > which is inbetween. Mmmmmmm > > > >(that you had a wonderful place in a list that made you happy > >and by poking around in my issues in a public place, I was ruining > your > >place, which you had first, and I came into like a bull in a china > >shop.) > > Poking around in issues is bound to touch the > issues of other ppl, as there > seems to me to always be > lots of common issues. yup. We are all in this sinking boat together. I say let it sink and learn the joys of swimming and floating. The water is fine. (very fine) > > > Letting go is difficult. > It means being vulnerable to > everyone and everything > and this is scary. > yes, but as I do it, I realize it's safe, and the fear dissipates and then it becomes a game. What shall I let go of today, and how much more relaxed can I get? It feels like falling and you realize that there is no bottom to hit, so falling is fun! I love Anthony DeMello who says something like, "Why try to hold on to stop falling? Everything is falling..." I have to find the quote. My friend Mary taught me that one. Sat Guru! > > Thanks again for showing us fearlessness. > > > Love, > > Amanda. > Amanda, AMEN!!!! (I love you.) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2000 Report Share Posted April 14, 2000 Hi Amanda, But can you (and others, of course...) talk about how to get them unstuck, process them and let go of them? I'm working on this with yawning techniques that I never hear about from anyone else. (I wonder if the old taboo against yawning in public, and our polite way of putting our hand over our mouth is related to this? I suspect that whenever we hear about our ancestors being concerned about spirits entering or leaving our bodies, there is some useful (potentially abuseful as well?) technique of moving energies about. (any one want do dialogue about these?) I've experienced and witnessed great releases from holotropic breathwork but haven't done rebirthing or other techniques. I've signed up for the holotropic training and can hardly contain myself waiting for it to start. (why would I want to be contained, anyway? hmmm...) What sorts of experiences have people had that can be useful here? Love, Mark mumble cat wrote: > > On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:19:15 GCWein1111 wrote: > > > left alone, and leave traces of the old anger, > > as well as the resentment for having to > > ask for forgiveness in the first place, > > in our bodies. > > The later it comes back with a vengeance, > > either as anger problems in connection with > > parents or as other kinds of aches and > > pains in the physical body. > > >> > > > > l found this post very insightful and thought provoking, Amanda, > and will > >likely be re-reading it myself! > > That was nice of you to say, Jerry. Thank you > very much. > > I could write more about how old anger and other > unprocessed emotions get stuck in the > body, but that would only be a lot of babble about psychosomatic > disease > I reckon all of us have heard many times before. > > Thank you again. > > Love, > > Amanda. > > > > > > Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com > ----- > > ----- > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the > nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always > Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart > to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the > Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It > Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link > from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change > your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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