Guest guest Posted April 15, 2000 Report Share Posted April 15, 2000 Hello Rob, l started to copy and snip your response, then finally decided it's better to just do this from scratch. l felt pretty stupid after directing that last post to you. First, l was trying to reply to both of your posts, the earlier one to me as well as the one to Gloria, and in doing so l got stuck in mixing the feelings l had to both posts in one reply. l think that's why l opened with saying l "enjoyed" your post more to her, when clearly "enjoyed" wasn't appropriate. l didn't enjoy your post; l was moved by it. l felt you were being extremely honest and revealed alot of painful stuff, whereas l didn't. ( l was off track and meandered into an egoic space, which is hardly unkown territory for me!) That was what gave your one paragraph containing all the anguished questions such impact. l mentioned having a Jewish father and a Protestant mother -- beyond that, my father was so busy with his patients that we rarely saw him. He was a wonderful man, tirelessly taking care of poor people -- almost saint-like really, but he wasn't there for us much -- and he died when l was young. His brothers, who were also doctors, also died young -- all of them from heart disease. So, in a sense similar to you, my father was absent from my life. As l got older l realized, among other things, that l had no script for living beyond mid life. l just assumed l'd probably die young of heart disease and frankly, couldn't deal with death. l'd been raised in a fairly non-religious environment, and my natural inclination as a doubter made faith nearly impossible. Now here l am, after 16 yrs exploring eastern and other traditions, several trips to lndia, Nepal, Turkey, etc to be with masters, scores of retreats and workshops (none of this in recent years) and 7-1/2 yrs of a k experience, and how far have l come? l wonder. l've lost two friends to cancer in 2 months -- l just left one at the hospital yesterday -- and l still feel powerless in the face of death. Was it Milarepa to whom the passage was attributed "ln fear of death, l took to the mountains" ? That's what l thought l was going to do, in order to find what he found ....... oh well. When l read your post (and that one paragraph) a film l saw last week flashed thru my mind -- it was called THE THIRD MIRACLE and was about a Catholic priest whose job it was to check out the validity of so-called miracles claimed to support petitions of sainthood. l don't know if this is true, but it was said in the film that he needed to find evidence of 3 miracles. lt wasn't a pleasant job -- the priest was burned out and demoralized from having crushed so many pleas (and parishoners' beliefs) in the past. This time he was being sent to a parish in a poor, Polish immigrant neighborhood in Chicago. There was a climactic scene in the film in which a statue of Mary started shedding tears of blood (this is what it was supposed to have been doing on every day in October when it rained). The priest ran to the statue and stared with disbelief at the spectacle, knowing he'd finally found the real thing, while people quickly gathered around, most of them falling to their knees, praying, weeping, saying their rosaries, etc. Pretty much what one would expect from this type of film, l suppose. l'd seen the previews, so l surely wasn't surprised ... yet, l had a powerful reaction, and began bawling myself. l think in looking at all of these people at that moment l felt how desperately they needed to believe -- battered as they were by life -- by poverty, drugs, abuse, ill health, death -- all of the things we're assaulted by and more. l felt at that moment how painful it was for them to endure this without having knowing that God is real, or that the world is a divine place -- without knowing that all of these assaults were occurring within a context of the divine and that somewhere in the universe there was a reason for it all. More than anything, l felt how painful doubt and not knowing can be. Such that when the statue of Mary cried tears of blood, all questions could be answered, all insults accepted -- finally, we know all is One; all is Love. l go through phases -- never know where l'll be next week, or even tomorrow. l have an active k process, so who knows what's in store? But from all of the spiritually unsophisiticated things l say in my posts, it's probably apparent that while l once related so much to spiritual masters, lately l've been identifying more with people similar to the ones in this film. l think of their struggle, of having to face life with nothing approaching what we would call a realization. Maybe that's why a simple, humble act of faith has become so beautiful and moving to me. Hope this doesn't feel COMPLETELY irrelevant to your post ..(sigh) .. This is late because l hesitated in both doing and sending it. You were concerned with sounding preachy -- l'm concerned this sounds worse than preachy. Did you say you were a musician? Professionally? ln London? (Could be way off here -- just thought l picked this up from your posts.) love, jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2000 Report Share Posted April 15, 2000 GCWein1111 [GCWein1111] Saturday, April 15, 2000 9:12 AM Re: The Third Miracle/ Rob l think in looking at all of these people at that moment l felt how desperately they needed to believe -- battered as they were by life -- by poverty, drugs, abuse, ill health, death -- all of the things we're assaulted by and more. l felt at that moment how painful it was for them to endure this without having knowing that God is real, or that the world is a divine place -- without knowing that all of these assaults were occurring within a context of the divine and that somewhere in the universe there was a reason for it all. More than anything, l felt how painful doubt and not knowing can be. Such that when the statue of Mary cried tears of blood, all questions could be answered, all insults accepted -- finally, we know all is One; all is Love. l go through phases -- never know where l'll be next week, or even tomorrow. l have an active k process, so who knows what's in store? But from all of the spiritually unsophisiticated things l say in my posts, it's probably apparent that while l once related so much to spiritual masters, lately l've been identifying more with people similar to the ones in this film. l think of their struggle, of having to face life with nothing approaching what we would call a realization. Maybe that's why a simple, humble act of faith has become so beautiful and moving to me. Hope this doesn't feel COMPLETELY irrelevant to your post ..(sigh) .. This is late because l hesitated in both doing and sending it. You were concerned with sounding preachy -- l'm concerned this sounds worse than preachy. Did you say you were a musician? Professionally? ln London? (Could be way off here -- just thought l picked this up from your posts.) love, jerry You are the real thing Jerry and we love you. Thanks for being here. Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2000 Report Share Posted April 15, 2000 - <GCWein1111 Saturday, April 15, 2000 9:11 AM Re: The Third Miracle/ Rob Dear Jerry, I just wanted to remind you that Rob said he'd be away until Monday, so you wouldn't think he was ignoring this wonderful post you wrote to him. Then I want to say that your post was also very moving for me, because your description of the suffering people in this movie and their longing for some belief, some faith to sustain them amid the assaults of life very much expresses what I have been wanting to say as well about the children. When this anguished questioning becomes real and personal, when it is your friend who dies painfully, where is the answer to be found? I think it may have been Kierkegaard who said, "All men are shipwrecked, therefore I am only interested in the ideas of shipwrecked men." The discriminating mind can entertain itself endlessly with discussions of ideas, it is like counting the grains of sand. It is only from this place of desperate questioning, that one can even begin to stop wasting time on non-essentials and trivia. I am grateful for your presence here. Gloria > l think > in looking at all of these people at that moment l felt how desperately they > needed to believe -- battered as they were by life -- by poverty, drugs, > abuse, ill health, death -- all of the things we're assaulted by and more. l > felt at that moment how painful it was for them to endure this without having > knowing that God is real, or that the world is a divine place -- without > knowing that all of these assaults were occurring within a context of the > divine and that somewhere in the universe there was a reason for it all. > More than anything, l felt how painful doubt and not knowing can be. Such > that when the statue of Mary cried tears of blood, all questions could be > answered, all insults accepted -- finally, we know all is One; all is Love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2000 Report Share Posted April 16, 2000 Dear Harsha, l would not be able to share feelings like these were it not for your kind and generous support. As always, thank you. love, jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2000 Report Share Posted April 16, 2000 In a message dated 4/15/00 2:28:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, glee writes: << Then I want to say that your post was also very moving for me, because your description of the suffering people in this movie and their longing for some belief, some faith to sustain them amid the assaults of life very much expresses what I have been wanting to say as well about the children. When this anguished questioning becomes real and personal, when it is your friend who dies painfully, where is the answer to be found? I think it may have been Kierkegaard who said, "All men are shipwrecked, therefore I am only interested in the ideas of shipwrecked men." The discriminating mind can entertain itself endlessly with discussions of ideas, it is like counting the grains of sand. It is only from this place of desperate questioning, that one can even begin to stop wasting time on non-essentials and trivia. >> Hi Gloria, Thank you for such a thoughtful post. You've stated this very beautifully! Amen. jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2000 Report Share Posted April 17, 2000 At 09:11 15/04/00 EDT, you wrote: >Hello Rob, Hi Jerry, Glad I didn't offend... > l started to copy and snip your response, then finally decided it's >better to just do this from scratch. l felt pretty stupid after directing >that last post to you. First, l was trying to reply to both of your posts, >the earlier one to me as well as the one to Gloria, and in doing so l got >stuck in mixing the feelings l had to both posts in one reply. l think that's >why l opened with saying l "enjoyed" your post more to her, when clearly >"enjoyed" wasn't appropriate. l didn't enjoy your post; l was moved by it. > I understand now, and s'OK, glad you helped me understand. Thank you for caring. I don't talk about it much. l >felt you were being extremely honest and revealed alot of painful stuff, >whereas l didn't. ( l was off track and meandered into an egoic space, which >is hardly unkown territory for me!) That was what gave your one paragraph >containing all the anguished questions such impact. I don't remember the "egoic space" you spoke of, just wondered if I'd pressed any buttons, and you were putting up a jolly front ) > > l mentioned having a Jewish father and a Protestant >mother -- beyond that, my father was so busy with his patients that we rarely >saw him. He was a wonderful man, tirelessly taking care of poor people -- >almost saint-like really, but he wasn't there for us much -- and he died when >l was young. Strange, these guys so there for others, and their homes get the leftovers. I can see that in myself sometimes, being so busy at things that matter to me... Apparently, a study showed that a majority of male politicians lost their fathers at an early age... What does this mean? If anything? ) His brothers, who were also doctors, also died young -- all of >them from heart disease. So, in a sense similar to you, my father was absent >from my life. Were you an only child when he died? As l got older l realized, among other things, that l had no >script for living beyond mid life. l just assumed l'd probably die young of >heart disease and frankly, couldn't deal with death. l'd been raised in a >fairly non-religious environment, and my natural inclination as a doubter >made faith nearly impossible. Yeah, I found that the idea of death made the rational view pessimistic. Must have been weird, imagining yourself heading for death without any parachute! I kinda faced it, but what I was really doing was assuaging my fears. I still feel that death will loom large, as befits a major change of stae. I bought a great book last week: Tim Leary's "Design for Dying". Don't laugh : he went out courageously and with great humour. His book really turns the whole solemnity of death on its head, and all the fears and taboos fall out of its pockets... I recommend it, coz he makes a good case for being clear and unafraid. He cites all sorts of parallels to back his case up. If I was dying this week, I'd take his stance on. ) > > Now here l am, after 16 yrs exploring eastern and other >traditions, several trips to lndia, Nepal, Turkey, etc to be with masters, >scores of retreats and workshops (none of this in recent years) and 7-1/2 yrs >of a k experience, and how far have l come? l wonder. Well, I've never done these things, and I think you have done something great. You have travelled the world seeking. I can only imagine the ppl you've met. l've lost two friends >to cancer in 2 months -- l just left one at the hospital yesterday -- and l >still feel powerless in the face of death. Was it Milarepa to whom the >passage was attributed "ln fear of death, l took to the mountains" ? That's >what l thought l was going to do, in order to find what he found ....... oh >well. I don't know either. I reckon to myself if I can attain the gentle and profound detachment of Buddha, I may be able to face this without flinching, but at present the Zen stuff saves the day for me. We feel what feel, it in no way diminishes our transcendance if we allow our fear to flow by. That's where I'm at at present. > When l read your post (and that one paragraph) a film l saw last >week flashed thru my mind -- it was called THE THIRD MIRACLE and was about a >Catholic priest whose job it was to check out the validity of so-called >miracles claimed to support petitions of sainthood. l don't know if this is >true, but it was said in the film that he needed to find evidence of 3 >miracles. lt wasn't a pleasant job -- the priest was burned out and >demoralized from having crushed so many pleas (and parishoners' beliefs) in >the past. This time he was being sent to a parish in a poor, Polish >immigrant neighborhood in Chicago. > > There was a climactic scene in the film in which a statue of Mary started >shedding tears of blood (this is what it was supposed to have been doing on >every day in October when it rained). The priest ran to the statue and stared >with disbelief at the spectacle, knowing he'd finally found the real thing, >while people quickly gathered around, most of them falling to their knees, >praying, weeping, saying their rosaries, etc. Pretty much what one would >expect from this type of film, l suppose. l'd seen the previews, so l surely >wasn't surprised ... yet, l had a powerful reaction, and began bawling >myself. Was that coz here the priest was faced with what, in his heart of hearts, he had been looking for himself? Had he become so hardened to the lack of miracles that he had lost his own faith? I have been so lucky, I've been shown grace several times, when all hope was dying, and it sometimes rankled with me coz I didn't want to go on trying... What Angelique says about surrender rings deep bells for me, and I find it hard to do... But I reckon I'm getting there. > l think >in looking at all of these people at that moment l felt how desperately they >needed to believe -- battered as they were by life -- by poverty, drugs, >abuse, ill health, death -- all of the things we're assaulted by and more. l >felt at that moment how painful it was for them to endure this without having >knowing that God is real, or that the world is a divine place -- without >knowing that all of these assaults were occurring within a context of the >divine and that somewhere in the universe there was a reason for it all. >More than anything, l felt how painful doubt and not knowing can be. Such >that when the statue of Mary cried tears of blood, all questions could be >answered, all insults accepted -- finally, we know all is One; all is Love. > Beautiful. I've not heard of this film. I'll keep an eye out for it. One of my favourite films was a German film called (in English) Circle of Deceit. 1982, I think. Might have been Fassbinder. Based in Beruit (while it was still being shelled). German reporter whose life is a sham goes there with cameraman to write piece on what causes the conflict. Finds on both sides the same story: they murdered my wife/children/riens/brother/son, so I will have revenge. He records all this, in a little perplexity, and removed from it, as he would regard ppl who are obviously in some kind of sickness. One night he gets caught in the shellfire, dives into the bomb shelter of some Arabs, there's a near miss, pandemonium, the lights go out, and someone lands on top of him. In a funk, he draws a knife and stabs the person. He then sees it is an old man, dying. He runs through the streets, washes the blood off in his fine hotel, and returns to his family a changed and humbled man. There but for the grace of God... > l go through phases -- never know where l'll be next week, or even >tomorrow. l have an active k process, so who knows what's in store? But from >all of the spiritually unsophisiticated things l say in my posts, it's >probably apparent that while l once related so much to spiritual masters, >lately l've been identifying more with people similar to the ones in this >film. l think of their struggle, of having to face life with nothing >approaching what we would call a realization. Maybe that's why a simple, >humble act of faith has become so beautiful and moving to me. I got a lot of help from ppl who weren't "anything", they were just real to themselves. They wanted me to be the same, and that got me into seeing how everyday lessons can teach as much as all the study and exercises I was doing. I keep thinking of Frank Zappa's joke in "Dummy UpYou get *nothing* with your college degree!" It feels a bit to me like I love the feeling of the universe moving through me, but I can't count on a happy ever after scenario, at least not the way I *want* it. I keep wanting to have things work out as I think they should, and it keeps eluding me. And then I get that "what's the point" feeling, and shortly after, I sort of relax into that acceptance, and temporarily things alleviate. But I still get up in the morning and carry on doing stuff, plans, aims, dreams, all that. What a crazy thing life is... Next stop, doing without "doing"... ) I've got a fantastic book with me today: Toward the One, By Pir Vilayat Khan. Mind if I share some of it? : @@@ Has the course of your life ever been completely turned-about by the encounter with a being? A being who incorporates those values that you have always worshipped in your soul? If this happens: It is because that being was already in you. Confrontation with the qualities of his soul triggers off the like in you - the most wonderful thing that can happen until one realises, as Buddha said, There is a place one cannot reach by going anywhere. - Or as the rishi high up in the Himalayas who said to me "Why have you come so far to see what you should be?" To see what you should be! We wish to see in another what we should be ourselves and we would wish for another to inspire us to be so. Yes, the time comes when one realises that: The guru cannot do it for you but can only catalyse like properties. The time comes when one has to make the effort oneself to be what one wishes to see. @@@ > >Hope this doesn't feel COMPLETELY irrelevant to your post ..(sigh) .. This is >late because l hesitated in both doing and sending it. Thanks so much for sending it, Jerry, feel like we are getting to meet at last! And perfectly timed, coz I was away anyway... You were concerned >with sounding preachy -- l'm concerned this sounds worse than preachy. Anything but! Thank you so much for meeting me! Did >you say you were a musician? Professionally? ln London? (Could be way off >here -- just thought l picked this up from your posts.) I'm in East Anglia, land of big skies and dark soil. I'm a musician, but I don't consider myself professional. I do it because I'm helplessley in love with it. I hope to have it take care of itself, maybe even me, but I work as a trainer in a software company at present. Love and good wishes Rob > love, > jerry > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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