The Third Miracle/ Rob

April 18, 2000

In a message dated 4/17/00 5:33:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

Robert_Weil writes

His brothers, who were also doctors, also died young -- all of

>them from heart disease. So, in a sense similar to you, my father was

absent

>from my life.

Were you an only child when he died?

Hi Rob,

Thanx for your, as always, thought provoking response, which l'm trying to

follow here with some more comments after some snipping. ln anwer to the

above question, l was 19 when Dad died, the second oldest of 5 kids. l was

already accustomed to being the big brother. Having a large family probably

helped me cope, but also left an increased sense of responsibilty that led me

to stick around more than was good for me, l think.

As l got older l realized, among other things, that l had no

>script for living beyond mid life. l just assumed l'd probably die young of

>heart disease and frankly, couldn't deal with death. l'd been raised in a

>fairly non-religious environment, and my natural inclination as a doubter

>made faith nearly impossible.

® Yeah, I found that the idea of death made the rational view pessimistic.

Must have been weird, imagining yourself heading for death without any

parachute! I kinda faced it, but what I was really doing was assuaging

my fears. I still feel that death will loom large, as befits a major change

of stae. I bought a great book last week: Tim Leary's "Design for Dying".

Don't laugh : he went out courageously and with great humour. His book

really turns the whole solemnity of death on its head, and all the fears

and taboos fall out of its pockets...

I recommend it, coz he makes a good case for being clear and unafraid. He

cites all sorts of parallels to back his case up. If I was dying this

week, I'd take his stance on. )

>

(J)Thanks for the recommendation, Rob! l remember reading an article

about Leary's death and the way he approached it. Hey, if this book will make

me feel better in dealing with death, then l'll get it. lt's something l'm

still working on.

> You have travelled the world seeking. I can only imagine the ppl

you've met.

(J)Well, ha ha, l have had some very interesting experiences. Friends

have told me l ought to write a book about them. My response is always that l

ain't writin' no book 'til l'm enlightened. There are already too many books

written by assholes who are just looking for fame and fortune. :)

> When l read your post (and that one paragraph) a film l saw

last

>week flashed thru my mind -- it was called THE THIRD MIRACLE and was about

a

>Catholic priest whose job it was to check out the validity of so-called

>miracles claimed to support petitions of sainthood. l don't know if this

is

>true, but it was said in the film that he needed to find evidence of 3

>miracles. lt wasn't a pleasant job -- the priest was burned out and

>demoralized from having crushed so many pleas (and parishoners' beliefs) in

>the

Was that coz here the priest was faced with what, in his heart of hearts,

he had been looking for himself? Had he become so hardened to the lack of

miracles that he had lost his own faith?

(J)They didn't spell this out very clearly in the film, but l'd say

you're probably right on both counts. l hope you (and others on the list) see

this film. Unfortunately it won't be widely distributed. The main reason l

saw it is because l'm involved in a large theater here that specializes in

foreign and independent films, so l get to see alot, altho we don't get all

the good stuff here in Cincinnati.

I have been so lucky, I've been shown grace several times, when all hope

was dying, and it sometimes rankled with me coz I didn't want to go on

trying... What Angelique says about surrender rings deep bells for me, and

I find it hard to do... But I reckon I'm getting there.

(J) knowing that you've been shown grace like this must have been a real

blessing. l'll bet this would be a good story.

®One of

my favourite films was a German film called (in English) Circle of Deceit.

1982, I think. Might have been Fassbinder.

Based in Beruit (while it was still being shelled). German reporter whose

life is a sham goes there with cameraman to write piece on what causes the

conflict.

Finds on both sides the same story: they murdered my

wife/children/riens/brother/son, so I will have revenge. He records all

this, in a little perplexity, and removed from it, as he would regard ppl

who are obviously in some kind of sickness. One night he gets caught in the

shellfire, dives into the bomb shelter of some Arabs, there's a near miss,

pandemonium, the lights go out, and someone lands on top of him. In a funk,

he draws a knife and stabs the person. He then sees it is an old man,

dying. He runs through the streets, washes the blood off in his fine hotel,

and returns to his family a changed and humbled man. There but for the

grace of God...

(J) l don't recall seeing this film -- sounds very unsettling, to say the

least -- a portrait of war that goes far beyond ideology. l suspect that

probably most conflicts are like this one: primarily cycles of violence and

retaliation.

I keep thinking of Frank Zappa's joke in "Dummy UpYou get *nothing* with

your college degree!" It feels a bit to me like I love the feeling of the

universe moving through me, but I can't count on a happy ever after

scenario, at least not the way I *want* it. I keep wanting to have

things work out as I think they should, and it keeps eluding me. And then I

get that "what's the point" feeling, and shortly after, I sort of relax

into that acceptance, and temporarily things alleviate. But I still get up

in the morning and carry on doing stuff, plans, aims, dreams, all that.

What a crazy thing life is...

(J) The main thing that comes up for me as l read this is the

impersonal/personal dynamic. l think this is something that feels confusing

at times for me. On a personal level l'm the artistic/romantic type in a huge

way, and it's always felt so natural to get caught up in MY dreams, plans,

wants, etc. The impersonal, universal approach of being just an infinitesimal

speck, of not even having an intrinsic, independent existence that can be

identified as an "l", of course, is such a radically different perspective:

both totally threatening to this individualized drama, yet liberating (if you

can make the transition ). ls this related to the acceptance you're

talking about? The confusion l referred to also comes from my reading and

following both eastern and judeo-christian paths, which usually feel to me to

be a representation of the impersonal vs personal approaches. l think one of

the things l'm trying to do at some level (not always conscious) is resolve

conflicts l see in these approaches.

®I've got a fantastic book with me today: Toward the One, By Pir Vilayat

Khan.

Mind if I share some of it? :

@@@

Has the course of your life ever been completely

turned-about

by the encounter with a being?

A being who incorporates those values

that you have always worshipped in your soul?

If this happens:

It is because that being was already in you.

Confrontation with the qualities of his soul

triggers off the like in you -

the most wonderful thing that can happen

until one realises, as Buddha said,

There is a place one cannot reach by going anywhere.

- Or as the rishi high up in the Himalayas

who said to me

"Why have you come so far to see what you should be?"

To see what you should be!

We wish to see in another what we should be ourselves

and we would wish for another to inspire us to be so.

Yes, the time comes when one realises that:

The guru cannot do it for you

but can only catalyse like properties.

The time comes when one has to make the effort oneself

to be what one wishes to see.

@@@

(J) Yes, yes .... so tell me, what speaks most urgently to you in this

passage? (Not to be playing the role of a teacher here! ) One thing that

came to me was the Rumi passage that l'll roughly paraphrase: " l looked for

God in all the mosques ...everywhere ... until l found Him in my heart."

l did a retreat with Pir Vilayat 14 yrs ago

that made a definite difference in my journey at that time. l was quite taken

with him. The main theme of the retreat was integrating psychology and

spirituality, and he co-led it with his ex wife Taj who was American and

about half his age (he was about 70 then) and they had 2 young sons

together.(the older was recently named his successor in fact). Pir V was the

first person l heard use the term "spiritual bypass" which l used in a recent

post. l'll never forget the way we began the retreat, by each of us

anonymously writing on a slip of paper some of our worst thoughts about

ourselves. When someone read them to the class they sounded horrible, ghastly

-- and you could feel the tension in the air after the last one was read.

Then Pir Valayat just sort of sniffed and said "Not too bad ... l expected

much worse!" We all convulsed with laughter. lt was a great beginning.

When l started that retreat l'd recently returned from my first trip to

lndia and had my head up in clouds -- he helped bring me down to earth. The

quote you used sounds very much like him, the things he was saying then. He's

always been an advocate for being fully in the world. l have his first book,

"The Call of The Dervish" which many felt was not all that well written, so

this recent book was eagerly awaited by his students.

>

®I'm in East Anglia, land of big skies and dark soil. I'm a musician, but I

don't consider myself professional. I do it because I'm helplessley in love

with it. I hope to have it take care of itself, maybe even me, but I work

as a trainer in a software company at present.

(J) East Anglia? That's Britain, right? l don't recall where, but l'm

picturing verdant rolling hills, pastoral beauty ... where in relation to

London? l'll bet it's beautiful -- just the sort of place l've been longing

for. Take care.

love,

jerry

>>

April 18, 2000

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:33:02 Robert Weil wrote:

>@@@

>To see what you should be!

>We wish to see in another what we should be ourselves

>and we would wish for another to inspire us to be so.

>Yes, the time comes when one realises that:

>The guru cannot do it for you

>but can only catalyse like properties.

>The time comes when one has to make the effort oneself

>to be what one wishes to see.

>@@@

This quote was inspirational and uplifting

to me at least.

Thank you for sending.

I remember the first time seeing a Buddhist

statue in real life, at the Boston Museum

of Fine Arts.

They have a larger than life wooden

Avalokiteshvara sitting in a loose and informal

pose, with one leg drawn up and the other hanging from where the statue sits.

The statue is painted in

bright colors and the expression of

gentle love and wisdom

on the statue's face as well as

the grace of the informal pose is eerily lifelike. It is a great work of art.

The image of calm and love projected

by the statue was almost a slight shock and

for the first time in my life I had an inkling

of what the term "Bodhisattva" might

contain and was absolutely fascinated by

this idea as well as the statue.

Needless to say, I took a lot of pictures

of the statue and had a hard time leaving

it.

The artist that made the statue must have

inspired by the Bodhisattvas themselves it

seem to me.

Thank you again for posting.

Love,

Amanda.

Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

April 19, 2000

At 15:32 18/04/00 EDT, you wrote:

>In a message dated 4/17/00 5:33:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

>Robert_Weil writes

>

> His brothers, who were also doctors, also died young -- all of

> >them from heart disease. So, in a sense similar to you, my father was

>absent

> >from my life.

>

> Were you an only child when he died?

>

>Hi Rob,

Hi Jerry,

I'm out of town (suddenly) until Friday, so I'll answer you when I get

back. Thanks for the post!

Love

Rob

April 19, 2000

At 19:34 18/04/00, you wrote:

>

>On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:33:02 Robert Weil wrote:

>

>>@@@

>>To see what you should be!

>>We wish to see in another what we should be ourselves

>>and we would wish for another to inspire us to be so.

>>Yes, the time comes when one realises that:

>>The guru cannot do it for you

>>but can only catalyse like properties.

>>The time comes when one has to make the effort oneself

>>to be what one wishes to see.

>>@@@

>

>This quote was inspirational and uplifting

>to me at least.

Did it to me too, as does everything on every page!

>

snip

>I remember the first time seeing a Buddhist

>statue in real life, at the Boston Museum

>of Fine Arts.

>They have a larger than life wooden

>Avalokiteshvara sitting in a loose and informal

>pose, with one leg drawn up and the other hanging from where the statue sits.

>The statue is painted in

>bright colors and the expression of

>gentle love and wisdom

>on the statue's face as well as

>the grace of the informal pose is eerily lifelike. It is a great work of art.

>

>The image of calm and love projected

>by the statue was almost a slight shock and

>for the first time in my life I had an inkling

>of what the term "Bodhisattva" might

>contain and was absolutely fascinated by

>this idea as well as the statue.

>

What I've seen of stutues like this always gets me by their calm

fearlessness, their sureness in their awareness. That is something I would

love to become in myself. Another mirror, ho hum...

>Needless to say, I took a lot of pictures

>of the statue and had a hard time leaving

>it.

>

>The artist that made the statue must have

>inspired by the Bodhisattvas themselves it

>seem to me.

I think so too! Perhaps in making it you partly become it?

>

>Thank you again for posting.

Thanks, Amanda.

>

>Love,

>

>Amanda.

April 25, 2000

>

> Were you an only child when he died?

>

>Hi Rob,

Hi Jerry, back again, 'scuse the wait. )

>

>Thanx for your, as always, thought provoking response, which l'm trying to

>follow here with some more comments after some snipping. ln anwer to the

>above question, l was 19 when Dad died, the second oldest of 5 kids. l was

>already accustomed to being the big brother. Having a large family probably

>helped me cope, but also left an increased sense of responsibilty that led me

>to stick around more than was good for me, l think.

Things we have to do... and the way we grow up faster than expected... Must

have been an additional load to bear, and possibly no one to be there for

you? Just asking, I'm not meaning to pry.

>

snip>

> I recommend it, coz he makes a good case for being clear and unafraid. He

> cites all sorts of parallels to back his case up. If I was dying this

> week, I'd take his stance on. )

> >

>

> (J)Thanks for the recommendation, Rob! l remember reading an article

>about Leary's death and the way he approached it. Hey, if this book will make

>me feel better in dealing with death, then l'll get it. lt's something l'm

>still working on.

Me too. Actually, right now it's stuff around loneliness, which has come up

unbidden after a time of ease in myself. Interesting. Sometimes I don't

know whether I'm experiencing my own, individual, moods, or I'm getting

information from others, and it's either all theirs that I'm feeling from

my perspective, or it's coming in and my psyche is setting off a train of

thoughts based on the incoming energy. Weird. All I know is it's

squeezing my heart chakra quite strongly... Oof!

>

> > You have travelled the world seeking. I can only imagine the ppl

> you've met.

>

> (J)Well, ha ha, l have had some very interesting experiences. Friends

>have told me l ought to write a book about them. My response is always that l

>ain't writin' no book 'til l'm enlightened. There are already too many books

>written by assholes who are just looking for fame and fortune. :)

I guess you're right. There are a lot of books out there, after all. )

But what's to stop you creating something that feels right to you at the

time, even if you *know* it's just another book?

Perhaps the writing of the book is part of your path? Others' encouragement

here has helped me "just do it", and I'm glad they did it! )

>

snip>

> (J)They didn't spell this out very clearly in the film, but l'd say

>you're probably right on both counts. l hope you (and others on the list) see

>this film. Unfortunately it won't be widely distributed. The main reason l

>saw it is because l'm involved in a large theater here that specializes in

>foreign and independent films, so l get to see alot, altho we don't get all

>the good stuff here in Cincinnati.

Sound like a very interesting involvement! I used to see loads of arty

films in the first half of the nineties. I'll keep a look out for the film

in the arty cinemas...

>

> I have been so lucky, I've been shown grace several times, when all hope

> was dying, and it sometimes rankled with me coz I didn't want to go on

> trying... What Angelique says about surrender rings deep bells for me, and

> I find it hard to do... But I reckon I'm getting there.

>

> (J) knowing that you've been shown grace like this must have been a real

>blessing. l'll bet this would be a good story.

>

Not really, imo. I was blessed that it happened, but I was shown that if

I could live up to it, it was my birthright. And that has been the

struggle. The struggle to just be. )

>

> ®One of

> my favourite films was a German film called (in English) Circle of Deceit.

> 1982, I think. Might have been Fassbinder.

>

> Based in Beruit (while it was still being shelled). German reporter whose

snip> he draws a knife and stabs the person. He then sees it is an old man,

> dying. He runs through the streets, washes the blood off in his fine hotel,

> and returns to his family a changed and humbled man. There but for the

> grace of God...

>

> (J) l don't recall seeing this film -- sounds very unsettling, to say the

>least -- a portrait of war that goes far beyond ideology. l suspect that

>probably most conflicts are like this one: primarily cycles of violence and

>retaliation.

>

When states are involved, I think things get distorted by ideologies and

politics, even more than between ppl. One can lose the original reason for

the aggression, and lay projections of ideas on the other state. I know ppl

do it to each other too, but states have this vested interest to whip up

hatred to get their ppl in the mood to fight and die. And a very good way

is to objectify the other ppl, and polarise them relative to our good

qualities. One cannot allow their sameness, their commonality. They must be

overcome, taught a lesson, crushed, "neutralised" etc. And the method is

secondary to the goal. "We have always been at war with Eurasia" etc...

Once the process of war starts, the losses are real, but the "good" reasons

have their ironies. The English children are taught little of their

chequered Empirical past. When I think of the great inventions of the

English, like the concentration camp (from the Boer War), and the goose

step.... The Opium Wars, the Irish Famine, the slave trade to the sugar

plantations, the deportation of the Scottish crofters to gain their land,

etc etc. I'm not saying the English are worse than others, just that my

passport is British, and as a taxpayer I think I may point out certain

untaught aspects of our great nation's heritage.

>

>snip things work out as I think they should, and it keeps eluding me. And

then I

> get that "what's the point" feeling, and shortly after, I sort of relax

> into that acceptance, and temporarily things alleviate. But I still get up

> in the morning and carry on doing stuff, plans, aims, dreams, all that.

> What a crazy thing life is...

>

> (J) The main thing that comes up for me as l read this is the

>impersonal/personal dynamic. l think this is something that feels confusing

>at times for me. On a personal level l'm the artistic/romantic type in a huge

>way, and it's always felt so natural to get caught up in MY dreams, plans,

>wants, etc. The impersonal, universal approach of being just an infinitesimal

>speck, of not even having an intrinsic, independent existence that can be

>identified as an "l", of course, is such a radically different perspective:

>both totally threatening to this individualized drama, yet liberating (if you

>can make the transition ).

Actually, for me, the thing that moved me was Castaneda's Don Juan saying

how the warrior has perhaps no chance of succeeding in his goal of

immortality, but must nevertheless try, in order to manifest the

impeccability that is the warrior's reason for being. This may enable one

to release the ego from wanting outcomes, and focus on the treading of the

path. For its own sake. And that's hard. Especially for us "heroes"!

I would prefer a gentler, Taoist approach, but I'm not yet at the point of

going fishing... <g>

ls this related to the acceptance you're

>talking about? The confusion l referred to also comes from my reading and

>following both eastern and judeo-christian paths, which usually feel to me to

>be a representation of the impersonal vs personal approaches. l think one of

>the things l'm trying to do at some level (not always conscious) is resolve

>conflicts l see in these approaches.

I think we have to tread our own path, as we understand it. I am eternally

grateful for everything I have learned from religions, ppl and other

"events". And I certainly don't know as much a many ppl. This life is mine,

and I must live it from here.

>

> ®I've got a fantastic book with me today: Toward the One, By Pir Vilayat

>Khan.

>

> Mind if I share some of it? :

>

> @@@snip>

> The time comes when one has to make the effort oneself

> to be what one wishes to see.

> @@@

>

> (J) Yes, yes .... so tell me, what speaks most urgently to you in this

>passage? (Not to be playing the role of a teacher here! )

I learn anyway, Jerry, from you <g> Well, just the sense of personal

responsibility, I suppose. That, and the implication that we *can* get

there from here, because it is all here... And the connection he makes to

my heart, and I value such connections in life these days.

One thing that

>came to me was the Rumi passage that l'll roughly paraphrase: " l looked for

>God in all the mosques ...everywhere ... until l found Him in my heart."

>

Starting in the heart, seems like the right place! The only thing I know

that heals...

> l did a retreat with Pir Vilayat 14 yrs ago

>that made a definite difference in my journey at that time. l was quite taken

>with him. The main theme of the retreat was integrating psychology and

>spirituality, and he co-led it with his ex wife Taj who was American and

>about half his age (he was about 70 then) and they had 2 young sons

>together.(the older was recently named his successor in fact). Pir V was the

>first person l heard use the term "spiritual bypass" which l used in a recent

>post. l'll never forget the way we began the retreat, by each of us

>anonymously writing on a slip of paper some of our worst thoughts about

>ourselves. When someone read them to the class they sounded horrible, ghastly

>-- and you could feel the tension in the air after the last one was read.

>Then Pir Valayat just sort of sniffed and said "Not too bad ... l expected

>much worse!" We all convulsed with laughter. lt was a great beginning.

<LOL> Brilliant story, Jerry! Thanks for that! Just to be accepted as one

is, what a boon! And to see others in the same light, how marvelous...

Great to talk to someone someone who has actually met him! His written

words have given me much understanding, and the feeling in them has really

spoken to my soul.

>

>When l started that retreat l'd recently returned from my first trip to

>lndia and had my head up in clouds -- he helped bring me down to earth. The

>quote you used sounds very much like him, the things he was saying then. He's

>always been an advocate for being fully in the world. l have his first book,

>"The Call of The Dervish" which many felt was not all that well written, so

>this recent book was eagerly awaited by his students.

>

You sound better qualified to talk about him than me, Jerry! But I think

he's astounding.

> >

>>

> ®I'm in East Anglia, land of big skies and dark soil. I'm a musician,

but I

> don't consider myself professional. I do it because I'm helplessley in love

> with it. I hope to have it take care of itself, maybe even me, but I work

> as a trainer in a software company at present.

>

> (J) East Anglia? That's Britain, right? l don't recall where, but l'm

>picturing verdant rolling hills, pastoral beauty ... where in relation to

>London?

Well, imagine more fenland, reclaimed land, fields of corn, few trees,

farmers abundant, market towns, villages and the city of Cambridge below.

It all starts about fifty miles above London, and ends at the North Sea.

l'll bet it's beautiful -- just the sort of place l've been longing

>for. Take care.

Where are you? What's it like that you wish you were here? I gather some

parts (many parts) of the USA are beautiful!

Hope your Easter was good, Friday and all...

Take care yourself,

Love

Rob

>

> love,

> jerry

>

April 25, 2000

Hi Rob and Jerry,

Mind if I pop in here?

> I think it was Rob who said:

> "Me too. Actually, right now it's stuff around loneliness, which has

> come up

> unbidden after a time of ease in myself. Interesting. Sometimes I

> don't

> know whether I'm experiencing my own, individual, moods, or I'm

> getting

> information from others, and it's either all theirs that I'm feeling

> from

> my perspective, or it's coming in and my psyche is setting off a train

> of

> thoughts based on the incoming energy. Weird. All I know is it's

> squeezing my heart chakra quite strongly... Oof!

I wonder... Does it matter? (whether it's your own, or others) I say

it's all stuff. And stuff wants freedom. And we came to set it free.

Setting it free means feeling it and honoring it. Wherever it comes

from, it's human energy and we all can share in taking off its disguise

and recognizing the love nature of the energy. I may be crazy (That's

like an IMO, it's there to defend me from someone standing up and

shouting "but you're crazy.." yeah, okay I am. that's fine too.), but

this is how it seems from here. Setting aside the concern that I may be

doing unfair work if I experience someone else's pain (more than my fair

share...) has helped my heart to open, and I welcome it in now. I love

doing tonglen practice. It's all juicy stuff, and as it passes through,

I can see it turn from loneliness (is that really fear?) into love, and

that is just the best! So, relax and enjoy. (that's what transforms

it...)

Love, Mark

April 25, 2000

At 10:42 25/04/00 -0400, you wrote:

>Hi Rob and Jerry,

>

>Mind if I pop in here?

>

>> I think it was Rob who said:

>

>> "Me too. Actually, right now it's stuff around loneliness, which has

>> come up

>> unbidden after a time of ease in myself. Interesting. Sometimes I

>> don't

>> know whether I'm experiencing my own, individual, moods, or I'm

>> getting

>> information from others, and it's either all theirs that I'm feeling

>> from

>> my perspective, or it's coming in and my psyche is setting off a train

>> of

>> thoughts based on the incoming energy. Weird. All I know is it's

>> squeezing my heart chakra quite strongly... Oof!

>

>I wonder... Does it matter? (whether it's your own, or others) I say

>it's all stuff. And stuff wants freedom. And we came to set it free.

>Setting it free means feeling it and honoring it. Wherever it comes

>from, it's human energy and we all can share in taking off its disguise

>and recognizing the love nature of the energy. I may be crazy (That's

>like an IMO, it's there to defend me from someone standing up and

>shouting "but you're crazy.." yeah, okay I am. that's fine too.), but

>this is how it seems from here. Setting aside the concern that I may be

>doing unfair work if I experience someone else's pain (more than my fair

>share...) has helped my heart to open, and I welcome it in now. I love

>doing tonglen practice. It's all juicy stuff, and as it passes through,

>I can see it turn from loneliness (is that really fear?) into love, and

>that is just the best! So, relax and enjoy. (that's what transforms

>it...)

Thanks, Mark!

Good advice, but of course I'd be mad to take it...

Mine or another's, does it matter? Good point. It's not a matter of

"fairness", I don't mind, I feel connected whether I like it or not... I've

never really considered myself a long distance healer. Maybe I need to

adjust my spectacles... Loneliness has been fear, and is a restlessness

within myself. So I like the idea of tranlating it into love. I just feel

not quite strong enough sometimes. There are a couple of things that cause

me fear to open the heart fully in a certain direction, but I think I might

be able do it some other way. And I know I need to develop more strength in

my heart. I'd better read that tonglen stuff you posted! <LOL>

Cheers

Rob

>

>Love, Mark

>

April 25, 2000

Hi Rob,

Come on in, the madness is fine!!! I think it's not a matter of

strength. That's the fun thing; that you don't do it. You just let go

and it happens. It takes strength to hold onto it all, it takes

letting go and not needing strength anymore for the transformation.

It's abandoning all that you have and trusting it. Dive into the

madness, and experience it just knowing that mind states are just mind

states. (Don't mind them.) Sooner or later, you bob up and realize

that you can float. Death is perfectly safe. But hey, I'm an Otter,

and otters love abandoning themselves to the mud slide...

Whoooooooshhhhhhhh....

Love, Mark

P.S. Ignore everything I say. I'm mad. HaHaHa HoHoHo it's off to Hell

we go with razor blades and hand grenades, Hi Ho... all perfectly safe.

bring your children. don't forget to hand in your ticket...

Robert Weil wrote:

> At 10:42 25/04/00 -0400, you wrote:

> >Hi Rob and Jerry,

> >

> >Mind if I pop in here?

> >

> >> I think it was Rob who said:

> >

> >> "Me too. Actually, right now it's stuff around loneliness, which

> has

> >> come up

> >> unbidden after a time of ease in myself. Interesting. Sometimes I

> >> don't

> >> know whether I'm experiencing my own, individual, moods, or I'm

> >> getting

> >> information from others, and it's either all theirs that I'm

> feeling

> >> from

> >> my perspective, or it's coming in and my psyche is setting off a

> train

> >> of

> >> thoughts based on the incoming energy. Weird. All I know is it's

>

> >> squeezing my heart chakra quite strongly... Oof!

> >

> >I wonder... Does it matter? (whether it's your own, or others) I

> say

> >it's all stuff. And stuff wants freedom. And we came to set it free.

>

> >Setting it free means feeling it and honoring it. Wherever it comes

> >from, it's human energy and we all can share in taking off its

> disguise

> >and recognizing the love nature of the energy. I may be crazy

> (That's

> >like an IMO, it's there to defend me from someone standing up and

> >shouting "but you're crazy.." yeah, okay I am. that's fine too.),

> but

> >this is how it seems from here. Setting aside the concern that I may

> be

> >doing unfair work if I experience someone else's pain (more than my

> fair

> >share...) has helped my heart to open, and I welcome it in now. I

> love

> >doing tonglen practice. It's all juicy stuff, and as it passes

> through,

> >I can see it turn from loneliness (is that really fear?) into love,

> and

> >that is just the best! So, relax and enjoy. (that's what transforms

>

> >it...)

>

> Thanks, Mark!

>

> Good advice, but of course I'd be mad to take it...

>

> Mine or another's, does it matter? Good point. It's not a matter of

> "fairness", I don't mind, I feel connected whether I like it or not...

> I've

> never really considered myself a long distance healer. Maybe I need to

>

> adjust my spectacles... Loneliness has been fear, and is a

> restlessness

> within myself. So I like the idea of tranlating it into love. I just

> feel

> not quite strong enough sometimes. There are a couple of things that

> cause

> me fear to open the heart fully in a certain direction, but I think I

> might

> be able do it some other way. And I know I need to develop more

> strength in

> my heart. I'd better read that tonglen stuff you posted! <LOL>

>

> Cheers

>

> Rob

> >

> >Love, Mark

> >

>

> -----

>

> -----

> //

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

> perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

> subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

> different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the

> nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

> Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart

> to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the

> Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It

> Self. Welcome all to a.

>

> To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

> www., and select the User Center link

> from the menu bar

> on the left. This menu will also let you change

> your subscription

> between digest and normal mode.

>

April 25, 2000

At 12:23 25/04/00 -0400, you wrote:

>Hi Rob,

>

>Come on in, the madness is fine!!!

To think I could have stayed on this list for rational debate. Luckily I

didn't... )

I think it's not a matter of

>strength. That's the fun thing; that you don't do it. You just let go

>and it happens. It takes strength to hold onto it all, it takes

>letting go and not needing strength anymore for the transformation.

>It's abandoning all that you have and trusting it.

Well, to do that I shall have to face a fear that goes way back, so give me

a little time to help myself through that! Other than that, I have no

problem with letting go <g>...

Dive into the

>madness, and experience it just knowing that mind states are just mind

>states. (Don't mind them.)

OK. I don't mind, usually... (this is a trust issue that feels big enough

to wipe me out, Mark, especially over the net!)

Sooner or later, you bob up and realize

>that you can float. Death is perfectly safe.

Death? no problem. Continuing self-annihilation? Different ball game...

I've done this several times for myself, but here's a question: how do you

relate the personal ego-death to the interpersonal relationships in one's

life? How to transmute others' games and fears, especially those close to

one's heart, be strong enough in one's emptyness, to let all their personal

hooks flow through one? There's the fear, Mark, and it ain't small

(subjectively speaking, of course). I don't want to have to connect

myself up to others' perceptions of me, good or bad. But here we are,

linked together anyways. That's where for me the need for "strength" comes

in... Not saying you're "wrong", just pointing at the moon...

But hey, I'm an Otter,

>and otters love abandoning themselves to the mud slide...

>Whoooooooshhhhhhhh....

>

>Love, Mark

>P.S. Ignore everything I say. I'm mad. HaHaHa HoHoHo it's off to Hell

>we go with razor blades and hand grenades, Hi Ho... all perfectly safe.

>bring your children. don't forget to hand in your ticket...

No refunds, eh? )) But of course, there's no one left to complain! And no

ticket...

I'd have ignored everything you said, if only you hadn't said it...

Love,

Rob

>

>Robert Weil wrote:

>

>> At 10:42 25/04/00 -0400, you wrote:

>> >Hi Rob and Jerry,

>> >

>> >Mind if I pop in here?

>> >

>> >> I think it was Rob who said:

>> >

>> >> "Me too. Actually, right now it's stuff around loneliness, which

>> has

>> >> come up

>> >> unbidden after a time of ease in myself. Interesting. Sometimes I

>> >> don't

>> >> know whether I'm experiencing my own, individual, moods, or I'm

>> >> getting

>> >> information from others, and it's either all theirs that I'm

>> feeling

>> >> from

>> >> my perspective, or it's coming in and my psyche is setting off a

>> train

>> >> of

>> >> thoughts based on the incoming energy. Weird. All I know is it's

>>

>> >> squeezing my heart chakra quite strongly... Oof!

>> >

>> >I wonder... Does it matter? (whether it's your own, or others) I

>> say

>> >it's all stuff. And stuff wants freedom. And we came to set it free.

>>

>> >Setting it free means feeling it and honoring it. Wherever it comes

>> >from, it's human energy and we all can share in taking off its

>> disguise

>> >and recognizing the love nature of the energy. I may be crazy

>> (That's

>> >like an IMO, it's there to defend me from someone standing up and

>> >shouting "but you're crazy.." yeah, okay I am. that's fine too.),

>> but

>> >this is how it seems from here. Setting aside the concern that I may

>> be

>> >doing unfair work if I experience someone else's pain (more than my

>> fair

>> >share...) has helped my heart to open, and I welcome it in now. I

>> love

>> >doing tonglen practice. It's all juicy stuff, and as it passes

>> through,

>> >I can see it turn from loneliness (is that really fear?) into love,

>> and

>> >that is just the best! So, relax and enjoy. (that's what transforms

>>

>> >it...)

>>

>> Thanks, Mark!

>>

>> Good advice, but of course I'd be mad to take it...

>>

>> Mine or another's, does it matter? Good point. It's not a matter of

>> "fairness", I don't mind, I feel connected whether I like it or not...

>> I've

>> never really considered myself a long distance healer. Maybe I need to

>>

>> adjust my spectacles... Loneliness has been fear, and is a

>> restlessness

>> within myself. So I like the idea of tranlating it into love. I just

>> feel

>> not quite strong enough sometimes. There are a couple of things that

>> cause

>> me fear to open the heart fully in a certain direction, but I think I

>> might

>> be able do it some other way. And I know I need to develop more

>> strength in

>> my heart. I'd better read that tonglen stuff you posted! <LOL>

>>

>> Cheers

>>

>> Rob

>> >

>> >Love, Mark

>> >

>>

>> -----

>>

>> -----

>> //

>>

>> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

>> perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

>> subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

>> different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the

>> nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

>> Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart

>> to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the

>> Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It

>> Self. Welcome all to a.

>>

>> To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

>> www., and select the User Center link

>> from the menu bar

>> on the left. This menu will also let you change

>> your subscription

>> between digest and normal mode.

>>

>

>------

>eGroups eLerts

>It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!

>http://click./1/3079/5/_/520931/_/956679739/

>------

>

>//

>

>All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is

Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality

of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

a.

>

>To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

> www., and select the User Center link from

the menu bar

> on the left. This menu will also let you change your

subscription

> between digest and normal mode.

>

April 25, 2000

At 17:43 25/04/00 +0100, you wrote:

>At 12:23 25/04/00 -0400, you wrote:

>>Hi Rob,

>>

>>Come on in, the madness is fine!!!

>

>To think I could have stayed on this list for rational debate. Luckily I

>didn't... )

>

PS, Mark

I really *have* to go home now! ) Honest! Let's get back to this

tomorrow. I shall see what occurs tonight.

Love, and may all hearts mend

Rob

April 25, 2000

In a message dated 4/25/00 2:18:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

Robert_Weil writes:

I guess you're right. There are a lot of books out there, after all. )

But what's to stop you creating something that feels right to you at the

time, even if you *know* it's just another book?

Perhaps the writing of the book is part of your path? Others' encouragement

here has helped me "just do it", and I'm glad they did it! )

Hello Rob,

Welcome back! An entire week offline? l don't know if l could stand

it -- can just imagine all the mail that would stack up. ln the interest of

brevity l've done alot of snipping in order to focus on just a few things.

Hey, are you writing (or have you written) a book? Geez, if so, please forget

the comment l made about all those assholes writing books, haha. l gotta

admit, l'm tempted to do it. God knows l've got enough shit to fill one --

but l was actually sincere when l said l wouldn't do it until l became

enlightened, altho l wouldn't go that far -- if l were to ever do such a

thing l wouldn't do so until l was at least at some point of completion in my

k process.

l do think you make an interesting point, about the writing

of a book in itself being part of one's path. l've often felt that writing

helps me process things. l've kept a journal for over 25 years -- it consists

of God knows how many legal pads -- l've got 'em stacked in a closet and in

my basement. Anyway, if you do have a book, please tell me about it.

Sound like a very interesting involvement! I used to see loads of arty

films in the first half of the nineties. I'll keep a look out for the film

in the arty cinemas...

(J)The story of my involvement in this art cinema is one of the best

stories of my life. lt started 16 yrs ago when a fast food chain tried to

replace an old cinema in our local business district ( l live in an urban,

professional village near a large university which is in the city of

Cincinnati.) A few of us rallied our community and stopped them -- it took 5

yrs to do so, going all the way to the Ohio Supreme Court before we won. Then

it took us another 2 yrs to raise the money and somehow manage to reopen the

cinema, which we enlarged to 6 screens. This is the only neighborhood cinema

left in our city -- all the rest are megaplexes in shopping malls, so l see

this as a miracle. lt's only a few blocks from my house -- l hang out there

some, see all the films of course -- it's been a saviour to me during this

rough time of k problems.

.

Actually, for me, the thing that moved me was Castaneda's Don Juan saying

how the warrior has perhaps no chance of succeeding in his goal of

immortality, but must nevertheless try, in order to manifest the

impeccability that is the warrior's reason for being. This may enable one

to release the ego from wanting outcomes, and focus on the treading of the

path. For its own sake. And that's hard. Especially for us "heroes"!

(J)l haven't read Castaneda for a long time ... Do you recall what Don

Juan meant when he said that the warrior has no chance of succeeding in his

goal of immortality?

I think we have to tread our own path, as we understand it. I am eternally

grateful for everything I have learned from religions, ppl and other

"events". And I certainly don't know as much a many ppl. This life is mine,

and I must live it from here.

(J) Well, l sure do agree with this ... on all counts.

>

> ®I've got a fantastic book with me today: Toward the One, By Pir Vilayat

>Khan.

>

> Mind if I share some of it? :

>

> @@@snip>

> The time comes when one has to make the effort oneself

> to be what one wishes to see.

> @@@

>

> (J) Yes, yes .... so tell me, what speaks most urgently to you in this

>passage? (Not to be playing the role of a teacher here! )

I learn anyway, Jerry, from you <g> Well, just the sense of personal

responsibility, I suppose. That, and the implication that we *can* get

there from here, because it is all here... And the connection he makes to

my heart, and I value such connections in life these days.

(J) Absolutely -- that's pretty much what l thought you were talking

about.

Great to talk to someone someone who has actually met him! His written

words have given me much understanding, and the feeling in them has really

spoken to my soul.

(J) Pir Vilayat is neat to be around. l mean, he looks and sounds EXACTLY

the way you think a mystic should be. Both his appearance and voice are

beautiful, or at least were when l was last with him some years ago. He's

getting old now though. l remember how lovingly and adoringly he spoke of his

father Hazrat Anayat Khan, who died when he was a young boy -- l doubt if he

ever got to know him well. l recall his eyes getting misty once and his

saying "My father was a saint..." He said it with such love.

>

> (J) East Anglia? That's Britain, right? l don't recall where, but l'm

>picturing verdant rolling hills, pastoral beauty ... where in relation to

>London?

Well, imagine more fenland, reclaimed land, fields of corn, few trees,

farmers abundant, market towns, villages and the city of Cambridge below.

It all starts about fifty miles above London, and ends at the North Sea.

(J) Not quite my fantasy, but it still sounds good -- l mean, geez,

Cambridge is beautiful, near London and the sea --- give me a break. l'd

trade in a heartbeat, believe me. l love England (but then, l love everyplace

but where l live )

Seeing you trash Britain's storied past,

l may love it more than you do, ha ha.l'm almost a died in the wool

Anglophile. Hey, everyplace the British ruled, at least they left good roads,

good government and civil service and people speaking the king's english.

Wherever the US has ruled, we've usually left bars and whorehouses!

Where are you? What's it like that you wish you were here? I gather some

parts (many parts) of the USA are beautiful!

Well, again, l'm in a pretty large city. l always told people l could

stand living here so long as l could travel, which l used to do all the time.

l feel like l'm going nuts at times because thanx to my k problems,

especially my bad back, l haven't felt up to traveling for nearly 5 yrs now

-- 5 fricking yrs without one nite away from my home, so l'm not a happy

camper in this respect. My back makes is really hard to sit down, and l also

sleep in a special bed so l can sleep semi reclining with also a very soft

mattress and can also prepare my own food most of the time -- it'd be hard

for me being away from all this, so l just continue on in my gilded cage

here.

Speaking of food -- time to get dinner. Take care, Rob.

love,

jerry

>>

April 25, 2000

Mark writes:

>P.S. Ignore everything I say. I'm mad. HaHaHa HoHoHo it's off to Hell

>we go with razor blades and hand grenades, Hi Ho... all perfectly safe.

>bring your children. don't forget to hand in your ticket...

Sounds like an "E" ticket ride, and I don't think that I have any of those

left-- I used my last one to go on the Matterhorn (or was that the tea

cups? ;-)

But it sound like I am in luck. If Hell is the destination it shouldn't be

hard for me to get there -- I spend much of my time there (asking others

for the key to let me out, when the key has always been in my own pocket).

Take it from a shrink-- madness is totally underrated (not mental illness

but madness, like Mark ;-) Being mad allows me to laugh a little more at

this mad world I live in. It is harder for me to judge when I am mad, and

most of my problems have been due to my judgements.

Being mad has other advantages as well.

I can tap into my giraffe-consciousness and reach the eucalyptus leaves

high up in the tree-- far higher than any otter can reach (except I expect

that mad otters can bounce like Tigger; isn't that a charming thought --

an otter bouncing around -- his aerodynamics should be really interesting

because of his tail).

Oh well, enough rambling. Namaste all-

Mike

April 26, 2000

Hi guys -

Just wanted to tell you how much I've enjoyed this thread. I'm having my own

stuff with energy, unexpected empathy, fear, loneliness, and what may or may not

be kundalini awakening. It was really heartening to come home tonight and read

your discussion. Thanks.

Lynne

What a wonderful salutation: "may all hearts mend" !

Robert Weil wrote:

> At 17:43 25/04/00 +0100, you wrote:

> >At 12:23 25/04/00 -0400, you wrote:

> >>Hi Rob,

> >>

> >>Come on in, the madness is fine!!!

> >

> >To think I could have stayed on this list for rational debate. Luckily I

> >didn't... )

> >

> PS, Mark

>

> I really *have* to go home now! ) Honest! Let's get back to this

> tomorrow. I shall see what occurs tonight.

>

> Love, and may all hearts mend

>

> Rob

>

> ------

> Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws.

> http://click./1/3020/5/_/520931/_/956681963/

> ------

>

> //

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean,

all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does

not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is.

Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee

relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into

It Self. Welcome all to a.

>

> To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

> www., and select the User Center link from the

menu bar

> on the left. This menu will also let you change your

subscription

> between digest and normal mode.

April 26, 2000

At 22:47 25/04/00 -0600, you wrote:

>Hi guys -

>Just wanted to tell you how much I've enjoyed this thread. I'm having my

own stuff with energy, unexpected empathy, fear, loneliness, and what may

or may not be kundalini awakening. It was really heartening to come home

tonight and read your discussion. Thanks.

Hi Lynne,

Sounds like the heart opening,

Thank you for enjoying the thread. If it gets too intense for me, I may

need to take it to personal communication, because much as I want to share,

I feel a bit unsafe out here I hope you'll understand.

Feel free to join in, if you want. Makes the process a little less scary, I

think.

Love

Rob

>Lynne

>

>What a wonderful salutation: "may all hearts mend" !

>

>Robert Weil wrote:

>

>> At 17:43 25/04/00 +0100, you wrote:

>> >At 12:23 25/04/00 -0400, you wrote:

>> >>Hi Rob,

>> >>

>> >>Come on in, the madness is fine!!!

>> >

>> >To think I could have stayed on this list for rational debate. Luckily I

>> >didn't... )

>> >

>> PS, Mark

>>

>> I really *have* to go home now! ) Honest! Let's get back to this

>> tomorrow. I shall see what occurs tonight.

>>

>> Love, and may all hearts mend

>>

>> Rob

April 26, 2000

In a message dated 4/25/00 9:24:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

mark.otter writes:

<<