Guest guest Posted April 26, 2000 Report Share Posted April 26, 2000 >mark.otter writes: > Come on in, the madness is fine!!! I think it's not a matter of > strength. That's the fun thing; that you don't do it. You just let go > and it happens. It takes strength to hold onto it all, it takes > letting go and not needing strength anymore for the transformation. >HoHoHo it's off to Hell > we go with razor blades and hand grenades, Hi Ho... all perfectly safe. On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:46:03 GCWein1111 wrote: > Great post, Mark. l guess we can all relate to this. For me, though, it >feels like it takes alot of strength to really let go like this .... my time >might be approaching. Hi Mark, Can I come down to you in Hell ? I have always wanted to go to Hell. One of my favorite comic books is the "How to go to Hell" series by the Simpsons creators. And one of the favorite horror books I read as a teenager was "Hellbound Heart" by Clive Barker. Not quite as spiritually uplifting literature as Greg's book list, but inspired I dare say nevertheless. And you know what they say about Hell, having a snowball's chance in Hell etc. There is a zen koan which says something about that and which I have been trying to find out what means in the last few days. It goes something like this: "Light a fire in the stove. Behold ! A snowball appears." Jerry, Rob: You talked about strength in your last posts. I share our friend Mark's views on strength. A Chinese friend once asked me to be "more like the bamboo that bends in the wind but does not break" and thought that being soft was really stronger than being stiff and "strong". At the time I thought it was the stupidest idea I had heard in a long time. But my wise friend turned out to be right after all. Being flexible and yielding is more longer lasting than being stiff and holding onto old views and perceptions. But it's difficult to let go of the views we don't know are there. Being flexible is close to being relaxed, it is letting energy and events stream over or through, bending still moving but not resisting. Many ppl here are probably familiar with this, but I suspect: Flexibility = relaxation = surrender = no one to surrender. Enlightenment may perhaps be seen as the ultimate of relaxation, the time when the ego and mind relax so completely, the wind of knowledge and love can lift the hairy tuft of the seed carriers from the reeds and the seeds become a part of the wind. Also, from chemistry, a solution's "strength" means that more of it has left the clump of dry material that is basis for the solution and that more of this material has been dissolved. Just some hastily constructed thoughts for today. I will be back on Tuesday. See you all then. Love, Amanda. Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2000 Report Share Posted April 26, 2000 MMMmmmmmmumble Cat, (That's a purr) I love your post. I think Hell is incredibly (understatement of a lifetime?) painful, if you take it personally. The less you do so, the more tolerable, and even interesting it can be. There are definitely transformations that happen as one changes how personally one takes it all. I speak of the experiences I've had, and don't mean to imply that they are universal (unless everything is, of course, which I believe.) believe - what an interesting word... one letter different from "be live", pronounced "be leave". Which is it? When I was in junior high school, there was an ice storm in Connecticut, which snapped some 15 of the 20 trees we had in our backyard right in half. (powerful sound when a tree is snapped in half.) I think the really big trees survived but the thin ones snapped, so both flexibility and the ability to let go are important. The thin ones survive snow because they bend and the snow falls off. (again and again, and again...) Yes, it's difficult to let go of the stuff we don't know about. I find relaxation to be a good metaphor for this. I sometimes know I'm tense, but can't find where to let go. Sometimes tensing the area and then letting go helps. I know I have views that I hold unconsciously, so I have to look at my behavior and try to find the causes. That takes persistence. Sometimes, I find that accentuating an emotion helps clear it. Sometimes I just rant and rave and scare myself (and others.) I think the difference is the awareness I bring to it. If I accentuate the emotion consciously, paying attention, good things happen. If I do so automatically, I can really cause a mess. If I am taking it personally, I do the second. If I don't, it's the first. So taking it personally and being aware seem at odds... (are they opposites?) Hmmmm... That's all for now, this week has been long already, and I am pooped. (who pooped me, and does he/she feel better?) Now I feel like a peice of sh... Think I'll go find some flower seeds to merge with... mad fingers, mad fingers, such joy... Love, Mark mumble cat wrote: > > >mark.otter writes: > > > Come on in, the madness is fine!!! I think it's not a matter of > > strength. That's the fun thing; that you don't do it. You just let > go > > and it happens. It takes strength to hold onto it all, it takes > > letting go and not needing strength anymore for the transformation. > > >HoHoHo it's off to Hell > > we go with razor blades and hand grenades, Hi Ho... all perfectly > safe. > > On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:46:03 GCWein1111 wrote: > > Great post, Mark. l guess we can all relate to this. For me, > though, it > >feels like it takes alot of strength to really let go like this .... > my time > >might be approaching. > > > Hi Mark, > > Can I come down to you in Hell ? > > I have always wanted to go to Hell. > One of my favorite comic books is the "How to go to > Hell" series by the Simpsons creators. > And one of the favorite horror books I read as a > teenager was "Hellbound Heart" by Clive Barker. > Not quite as spiritually uplifting literature as > Greg's book list, but inspired I dare say nevertheless. > > > And you know what they say about Hell, having > a snowball's chance in Hell etc. > There is a zen koan which says something about that > and which I have been trying to find out > what means in the last few days. It goes something > like this: > > "Light a fire in the stove. Behold ! A snowball appears." > > > Jerry, Rob: > > You talked about strength in your last posts. > > I share our friend Mark's views on strength. > > A Chinese friend once asked me to be "more like the > bamboo that bends in the wind but does not break" > and thought that being soft was really stronger > than being stiff and "strong". > At the time I thought it was the stupidest idea > I had heard in a long time. But my wise friend > turned out to be right after all. > > Being flexible and yielding is more longer lasting > than being stiff and holding onto old views and > perceptions. But it's difficult to let go of the > views we don't know are there. > > Being flexible is close to being relaxed, it is > letting energy and events stream over or through, > bending still moving but not resisting. > > Many ppl here are probably familiar with this, > but I suspect: > Flexibility = relaxation = surrender = no one to > surrender. > > Enlightenment may perhaps be seen as the ultimate > of relaxation, the time when the ego and mind > relax so completely, the wind of knowledge and love > can lift the hairy tuft of the seed carriers from > the reeds and the seeds become a part of the wind. > > Also, from chemistry, a solution's "strength" > means that more of it has left the clump of dry material that is basis > for the solution and that more > of this material has been dissolved. > > Just some hastily constructed thoughts for today. > > I will be back on Tuesday. > See you all then. > > Love, > > Amanda. > > > > > Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com > ----- > shapeani.gif > ----- > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the > nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always > Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart > to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the > Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It > Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link > from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change > your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 At 20:56 26/04/00 -0400, you wrote: Hi Mark, Amanda, Jerry, anyone, >MMMmmmmmmumble Cat, > >(That's a purr) I love your post. I think Hell is incredibly >(understatement of a lifetime?) painful, if you take it personally. The >less you do so, the more tolerable, and even interesting it can be. >There are definitely transformations that happen as one changes how >personally one takes it all. I speak of the experiences I've had, and >don't mean to imply that they are universal (unless everything is, of >course, which I believe.) As Ghandi said "I know a way out of Hell..." > >snip> >Yes, it's difficult to let go of the stuff we don't know about. I find >relaxation to be a good metaphor for this. I sometimes know I'm tense, >but can't find where to let go. Sometimes tensing the area and then >letting go helps. I know I have views that I hold unconsciously, so I >have to look at my behavior and try to find the causes. That takes >persistence. Sometimes, I find that accentuating an emotion helps clear >it. Sometimes I just rant and rave and scare myself (and others.) I >think the difference is the awareness I bring to it. If I accentuate >the emotion consciously, paying attention, good things happen. If I do >so automatically, I can really cause a mess. If I am taking it >personally, I do the second. If I don't, it's the first. So taking it >personally and being aware seem at odds... (are they opposites?) >Hmmmm... > Mark, I agree with your statements, however, your post to me that kicked off not only all these great responses from Jerry and Amanda but also a serious process (again) for me, had an effect that wasn't/isn't easily solved through "letting go 101". Without going into masses of boring detail and frankly embarrassing public confessions (unbidden are the worst, doncha think?), the thing that the post hit was a place where I cannot seem to resolve a very cruel end to a relationship that still appears in person every now and then, but will not allow any open meeting to finalise things, while claiming there is no animosity. Communication breakdown of a high order, as you say it's difficult to let go of stuff you don't understand. I'm between a sharp rock and a hard place. This is Sisiphus here, for ABC News, Hell. I can get the hand out of the jar and have spent a lot of occasions doing that (which has deepened my compassion a lot), but the jar keeps reappearing on my hand. I need to resolve this (no sh*t!). It's blocking my heart chakra at a deep level, about where compassion and unconditional love would flow out to everyone, and the world would appear suffused with love. It stops just short of this person, and gets blocked. I have had Reiki to clear it lately, and it just seems to fill up again, because the questions remain. I have really tried to let go of my attachments to having the situation resolved, but the loose ends just return to clog up my heart and give me nightmares. I'm either crazy (not a bad option, but not helpful) or I'm coming from the right place and don't know how to proceed. I have tried therapeutic methods of letting go, I have meditated on it. I have tried reason, I have tried compassion. All work for a while. None work for very long. I am frankly astounded how deep this one goes! There, now I expect ppl will think I'm an obsessive character. I'm not expecting anyone to have practical advice, (tho' some useful wisdom here would be appreciated), just to recognise how some things can leave you hurting and unhealed at a deep level, and perhaps there's nothing you can do. Then what? To let go of that means to let go of one's humanity, it seems. Not a pleasant option, all things considered. I've seen the problem from deep places, and I know it's part of a lesson for all involved. I am aware that my own viewpoint is relative. It doesn't matter from that perspective. All I wish for is a resolution that I can see from a perspective of love. This one is as deep as the problem I had as a child at school. The cruelty is hard to bear. I'm lucky, I have good friends now. I am burning off a load of karma through this. All I need to do now is release the deepest level. And I'm really stumped at this one. The Heyoka dances on, and I'm glad, yet this is a lonely one. Rob >That's all for now, this week has been long already, and I am pooped. >(who pooped me, and does he/she feel better?) Now I feel like a peice >of sh... Think I'll go find some flower seeds to merge with... mad >fingers, mad fingers, such joy... > >Love, Mark > >mumble cat wrote: > >> >> >mark.otter writes: >> >> > Come on in, the madness is fine!!! I think it's not a matter of >> > strength. That's the fun thing; that you don't do it. You just let >> go >> > and it happens. It takes strength to hold onto it all, it takes >> > letting go and not needing strength anymore for the transformation. >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 MMmmmmmmm, Robert. I love you. Thank you for putting this stuff out in the light. It IS hard work, and it IS scary, and you CAN (and will) do it. My recommendation is find a safe container. For me, holotropic breathwork has provided such a container, but most of the posts I've read from others who have done it seem guarded. I like that kind of work - fling yourself off the cliff and see what happens kind of work. That's just my style. I found that when the personal stuff became "the stuff" (had an archetypal, universal flavor, so I wasn't just crying for my personal story, but for everyone's story, that it all intensified but it all also became bearable. I don't know how to say it better than this, but I stand during breathwork and the whole room flows through me and I can let some pretty big stuff ground through my feet and my heart just swells open and it is so WONDERFUL, and its all because I let go and surrendered to the pain, gave up, decided it was okay to die, I was ready to die, the pain was so big, and I didn't have the courage to make my body die, so I just died and let my body do what it wants to do. I know the cross. I have suffocated in breathwork and I have dissolved. (I've done it about 25 times, and the experiences have covered a lot of ground. I keep going back, so maybe I'm addicted. I keep doing a lot of other things too, most of which are less illuminating.) You want to find a container first though. Doing this on the job can be an embarassing thing. I've done that too. Luckily I have a compassionate boss, and a system in which people are given some time to find their feet. I've found 'em (my feet) and am using them to walk elsewhere, but my life created this space and helped me to do the work and I'm grateful for all of it - failed career, well there's no need for details... I'd love it if everyone who has done this would share where and how they did it, so you can have some advice on finding containers. Ultimately, God is the container and everything in the universe is God, so where ever you do it, it is safe, but I know it doesn't look that way now, and frankly, it doesn't look that way here all the time either, so I have miles to go before I sleep as well. (but I KNOW it is true.) (no, for those who want to debate this, I won't debate it, or at least I won't debate it honestly, because there is no proof or argument I have to share. I know and I know I know and it can only be belief to someone who doesn't know. If you postulate that I am deluded, I will just sweetly agree. I am. and that's fine.) Anyway, thank you for sharing your experience, and I will add my prayers to Wonkatonka that the way be made easy for you and that you will come to save my people. Love, Mark Robert Weil wrote: > At 20:56 26/04/00 -0400, you wrote: > > Hi Mark, Amanda, Jerry, anyone, > > >MMMmmmmmmumble Cat, > > > >(That's a purr) I love your post. I think Hell is incredibly > >(understatement of a lifetime?) painful, if you take it personally. > The > >less you do so, the more tolerable, and even interesting it can be. > >There are definitely transformations that happen as one changes how > >personally one takes it all. I speak of the experiences I've had, > and > >don't mean to imply that they are universal (unless everything is, of > > >course, which I believe.) > > As Ghandi said "I know a way out of Hell..." > > > >snip> > >Yes, it's difficult to let go of the stuff we don't know about. I > find > >relaxation to be a good metaphor for this. I sometimes know I'm > tense, > >but can't find where to let go. Sometimes tensing the area and then > >letting go helps. I know I have views that I hold unconsciously, so > I > >have to look at my behavior and try to find the causes. That takes > >persistence. Sometimes, I find that accentuating an emotion helps > clear > >it. Sometimes I just rant and rave and scare myself (and others.) I > > >think the difference is the awareness I bring to it. If I accentuate > > >the emotion consciously, paying attention, good things happen. If I > do > >so automatically, I can really cause a mess. If I am taking it > >personally, I do the second. If I don't, it's the first. So taking > it > >personally and being aware seem at odds... (are they opposites?) > >Hmmmm... > > > > Mark, I agree with your statements, however, your post to me that > kicked > off not only all these great responses from Jerry and Amanda but also > a > serious process (again) for me, had an effect that wasn't/isn't easily > > solved through "letting go 101". > > Without going into masses of boring detail and frankly embarrassing > public > confessions (unbidden are the worst, doncha think?), the thing that > the > post hit was a place where I cannot seem to resolve a very cruel end > to a > relationship that still appears in person every now and then, but will > not > allow any open meeting to finalise things, while claiming there is no > animosity. Communication breakdown of a high order, as you say it's > difficult to let go of stuff you don't understand. I'm between a sharp > rock > and a hard place. This is Sisiphus here, for ABC News, Hell. > > I can get the hand out of the jar and have spent a lot of occasions > doing > that (which has deepened my compassion a lot), but the jar keeps > reappearing on my hand. I need to resolve this (no sh*t!). It's > blocking my > heart chakra at a deep level, about where compassion and unconditional > love > would flow out to everyone, and the world would appear suffused with > love. > It stops just short of this person, and gets blocked. I have had Reiki > to > clear it lately, and it just seems to fill up again, because the > questions > remain. > > I have really tried to let go of my attachments to having the > situation > resolved, but the loose ends just return to clog up my heart and give > me > nightmares. I'm either crazy (not a bad option, but not helpful) or > I'm > coming from the right place and don't know how to proceed. I have > tried > therapeutic methods of letting go, I have meditated on it. I have > tried > reason, I have tried compassion. All work for a while. None work for > very > long. I am frankly astounded how deep this one goes! > > There, now I expect ppl will think I'm an obsessive character. I'm not > > expecting anyone to have practical advice, (tho' some useful wisdom > here > would be appreciated), just to recognise how some things can leave you > > hurting and unhealed at a deep level, and perhaps there's nothing you > can > do. Then what? To let go of that means to let go of one's humanity, it > > seems. Not a pleasant option, all things considered. > > I've seen the problem from deep places, and I know it's part of a > lesson > for all involved. I am aware that my own viewpoint is relative. It > doesn't > matter from that perspective. All I wish for is a resolution that I > can see > from a perspective of love. This one is as deep as the problem I had > as a > child at school. The cruelty is hard to bear. > > I'm lucky, I have good friends now. I am burning off a load of karma > through this. All I need to do now is release the deepest level. And > I'm > really stumped at this one. > > > The Heyoka dances on, and I'm glad, yet this is a lonely one. > > > Rob > > >That's all for now, this week has been long already, and I am pooped. > > >(who pooped me, and does he/she feel better?) Now I feel like a > peice > >of sh... Think I'll go find some flower seeds to merge with... mad > >fingers, mad fingers, such joy... > > > >Love, Mark > > > >mumble cat wrote: > > > >> > >> >mark.otter writes: > >> > >> > Come on in, the madness is fine!!! I think it's not a matter of > >> > strength. That's the fun thing; that you don't do it. You just > let > >> go > >> > and it happens. It takes strength to hold onto it all, it takes > > >> > letting go and not needing strength anymore for the > transformation. > >> > ----- > > ----- > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the > nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always > Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart > to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the > Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It > Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link > from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change > your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 At 09:08 27/04/00 -0400, you wrote: >MMmmmmmmm, > >Robert. I love you. Thank you for putting this stuff out in the >light. It IS hard work, and it IS scary, and you CAN (and will) do it. Yes it has been, yes it is, yes I will, and perhaps with the info below, I have found a way to do it. Thank you. >My recommendation is find a safe container. For me, holotropic >breathwork has provided such a container, but most of the posts I've >read from others who have done it seem guarded. I like that kind of >work - fling yourself off the cliff and see what happens kind of work. Yeah, maybe I'm more cautious, but underneath I'm 100% determined. >That's just my style. I found that when the personal stuff became "the >stuff" (had an archetypal, universal flavor, so I wasn't just crying for >my personal story, but for everyone's story, that it all intensified but >it all also became bearable. Makes total sense to me. Partly why I wanted this stuff to sort out *with* the other ppl involved in the situation. Ho hum. What's the point of sitting on your diploma peeling grapes, when all around you is still in pain? I don't know how to say it better than >this, but I stand during breathwork and the whole room flows through me >and I can let some pretty big stuff ground through my feet and my heart >just swells open and it is so WONDERFUL, That seems to be what I'm after... not just a salve, but an alchemy... and its all because I let go >and surrendered to the pain, gave up, decided it was okay to die, I was >ready to die, the pain was so big, and I didn't have the courage to make >my body die, so I just died and let my body do what it wants to do. I >know the cross. Ever been frustrated because a tiny part of you didn't actually die? Like it would refuse to purify entirely, or so it seemed? I have suffocated in breathwork and I have dissolved. >(I've done it about 25 times, and the experiences have covered a lot of >ground. I keep going back, so maybe I'm addicted. Sounds good, and I guess after a few times this gets easier to carry out? I know that I am sick and tired of half-way half-baked paddling pool solutions, I have been dragged deep and I need to integrate it so's I can use it fully. (As long as it doesn't give me acne) <g> I keep doing a lot >of other things too, most of which are less illuminating.) Well, it passes the time... Seriously, this holotropic breathwork sounds intense and a bit scary, but it goes deep enough (I think). That's the thing. And after strong LSD and several big life changes, deep=profound, and I'm so up for that. btw, a quick shufti through the net seems to indicate that HBW and Rebirthing are somehow related. Is this so? I have read some rebirthing and very helpful it was too. > >You want to find a container first though. Doing this on the job can be >an embarassing thing. I've done that too. Luckily I have a >compassionate boss, and a system in which people are given some time to >find their feet. This is a software firm, we only give time to fix the bugs ). Actually, they don't ride me too hard, so I have had the opportunity to develop other pieces of my life. By container, do you mean a space *and* a time? Makes sense to me, and do you think it's best to begin with a group, or can this be done by a fool such as me without the training wheels? I've found 'em (my feet) and am using them to walk >elsewhere, but my life created this space and helped me to do the work >and I'm grateful for all of it - failed career, well there's no need for >details... I'd love it if everyone who has done this would share where >and how they did it, so you can have some advice on finding containers. Yes, please. I'm an information gatherer...) Besides which, I'm new to this >Ultimately, God is the container and everything in the universe is God, >so where ever you do it, it is safe, but I know it doesn't look that way >now, and frankly, it doesn't look that way here all the time either, Yeah, this one needs it to become safer, coz the safety is in the healing... so >I have miles to go before I sleep as well. (but I KNOW it is true.) >(no, for those who want to debate this, I won't debate it, or at least I >won't debate it honestly, because there is no proof or argument I have >to share. I know and I know I know and it can only be belief to someone >who doesn't know. If you postulate that I am deluded, I will just >sweetly agree. I am. and that's fine.) > >Anyway, thank you for sharing your experience, and I will add my prayers >to Wonkatonka The Great Being who plays with Brightly Coloured Toys? Cool. that the way be made easy for you and that you will come >to save my people. Thank you. I'll get my people to call yours. Love, and thanks for being there. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 Hi Robert, I want to keep the conversation going because I really am enjoying it. I'll snip and respond as I go: Robert Weil wrote: > > Yeah, maybe I'm more cautious, but underneath I'm 100% determined. > me too. (it's not no-fear; it's do it anyway.) (for me, for now.) > > Ever been frustrated because a tiny part of you didn't actually die? > Like > it would refuse to purify entirely, or so it seemed? Oh yes, yes, yes, and yes. Still am... I'm not claiming any sort of conclusion, being finished at all. I am where you are (as near as I can tell from here... hi are you in there? I'm in here. how'd you get in that one? (quoting Ram Dass)). I've mentioned here before my frustration with this, and my observation that when this happens, I find I can often let that tiny part swell up (like clenching a muscle to try to relax it all the way. You clench it to remind yourself what it means to be tense so that the relax is also more clear.) The tiny bit that is not relaxed can sometimes swell up so that I'm completely unrelaxed and then I can deal with it.) so, when there is a nagging little thing left, I think that is unfinished business knocking on the door of my attention. It's often a quiet knock - the knock of a child that has been ignored for ages and has just the tiniest bit of courage to ask for help, but will back down right away if not answered, and then creep back and knock again and again and again because that place he or she is is untenable. I think of these as children lost in the forest, who know that there is something other than cold and wet and lonely, but don't know what that might be. I can ask them in, and the trick for me is to let them become raging beasts if that is what they need to do. When they find out what they were missing all this time, their rage can explode... Or, to ut it another way, the decompression is large (they were encrypted in a highly compacted form to become minor aches and pains and decoding them expands them a lot. interesting way to say it that I learned here and on NDS... I don't have good words for it. But in the right place (a safe place) I can be devoured by the beast, and that reassures the beast who then comes down to size and we can explore together. As I type this some part of me is enthusiastic about it and some part is laughing in disgust. Who is right? I dunno. I do care though. Some part is so sad too... so many parts, all to be loved... > > > I have suffocated in breathwork and I have dissolved. > >(I've done it about 25 times, and the experiences have covered a lot > of > >ground. I keep going back, so maybe I'm addicted. > > Sounds good, and I guess after a few times this gets easier to carry > out? I > know that I am sick and tired of half-way half-baked paddling pool > solutions, I have been dragged deep and I need to integrate it so's I > can > use it fully. (As long as it doesn't give me acne) <g> Yeah, it seems to have lost most of its ooomph by now. I mostly clear energy paths and open a little wider to let the room (that is the other people's suffering and joy and whatever...) in and try to reach to outside the room. The last time I did this, I mostly explored letting go. I feel like I'm falling and it's fun to fall now. Wheeeeeeee - just like when you were a kid and your father was driving you somewhere but the car suspension wasn't so good and you went over a bump and got that feeling in your stomach. I get that now and then in the elevator and it gives me nice memories. I laugh at the people that get bothered by it. (not out loud of course...) I'm convinced there is no bottom (boy am I in for a surprise!... dunno....) I had an experience recently of my core essence being fear, and that was big and surprising and even more surprising was that it wasn't just "fear", it was "just fear". that was nice. Now for the most part when fear comes up, it can be quickly seen through. I feel a need to consolidate that and make it thoroughly a part of my life. > > Seriously, this holotropic breathwork sounds intense and a bit scary, > but > it goes deep enough (I think). That's the thing. And after strong LSD > and > several big life changes, deep=profound, and I'm so up for that. You've already done it. It's not any bigger, it's just something you can do with others who want to heal, in a controlled way and it's legal and that's as it should be. It's good therapy which allows a little suffering in so that it can be felt and healed. A bit at a time, but not a vanishingly small bit at a time. candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker - analysis is... but breathwork... Help me out Dan! I don't have the rhyme, but I mean that traditional forms of analysis can be very slow,and breathwork can dislodge stuff that then is worth talking about and seeing clearly. I think the dislodging process can go pretty deep, but I think other forms of work are needed to go the last distance, but we are often doing other kinds of work just as part of everyday life. That is becoming more and more useful as I notice more of it. > > > btw, a quick shufti through the net seems to indicate that HBW and > Rebirthing are somehow related. Is this so? I have read some > rebirthing and > very helpful it was too. I've never done rebirthing, but I think they are similar. My impression is that rebirthing is more guided and holotropic breathwork requires more personal effort. If you have done LSD, I suspect you would be good at breathwork. They are not the same, but they can be similar. I think they both loosen the firm grip of the normal wakeful state, allowing the psyche to take you to potentially very healing places. "Nonordinary states" is the phrase the breathwork community likes to use. > > > By container, do you mean a space *and* a time? Makes sense to me, and > do > you think it's best to begin with a group, or can this be done by a > fool > such as me without the training wheels? I mean whatever gives you a safe feeling for as long as your exploration needs to do some real work. The breathwork gives me a community of like-minded people, who's courage encourages me, and there is a definite time frame during which I have nothing else I have to deal with and a space that is dedicated to it and nobody there will be alarmed by my activity. I'm free to go anywhere I want, and it's a fixed time, so I can scale the experience to a chunk that I can handle. My psyche is very willing to parcel it out and takes me to places "I" would never think of, but they are the right places. It's so lovely to trust it all. And the way it happens for me is to decide to trust it all, and then find a place that feels safe, and then to do the experiment and let go completely of all expectations and judgements while I try it.(even judegements about judgements that arise. that is very useful to me. To suspend judgement of a judgement and find its source. So if you are fearful, don't judge the fear just feel it and learn what it is saying to you. sorry, I sound like a teacher and I'm not one. I just am learning about myself by telling it. > > > I've found 'em (my feet) and am using them to walk > >elsewhere, but my life created this space and helped me to do the > work > >and I'm grateful for all of it - failed career, well there's no need > for > >details... I'd love it if everyone who has done this would share > where > >and how they did it, so you can have some advice on finding > containers. > > Yes, please. I'm an information gatherer...) Besides which, I'm new > to > this > > >Ultimately, God is the container and everything in the universe is > God, > >so where ever you do it, it is safe, but I know it doesn't look that > way > >now, and frankly, it doesn't look that way here all the time either, > > Yeah, this one needs it to become safer, coz the safety is in the > healing... > You may find that the healing is in abandoning ideas of safety. > > so > >I have miles to go before I sleep as well. (but I KNOW it is true.) > >(no, for those who want to debate this, I won't debate it, or at > least I > >won't debate it honestly, because there is no proof or argument I > have > >to share. I know and I know I know and it can only be belief to > someone > >who doesn't know. If you postulate that I am deluded, I will just > >sweetly agree. I am. and that's fine.) > > > >Anyway, thank you for sharing your experience, and I will add my > prayers > >to Wonkatonka > > The Great Being who plays with Brightly Coloured Toys? Cool. > > that the way be made easy for you and that you will come > >to save my people. > > Thank you. I'll get my people to call yours. > > Love, and thanks for being there. > > Rob > > Thank you, Rob! In brotherhood, Mark P.S. From either this list, or its near neighbor, the NonDuality Salon, this seems relevant here: It seems embodiment is about now not witnessing, but actually diving into Oneness of what Is. Absorption. In this way whatever personality issues remain for healing are able to Be healed from conscious unconditional awareness, as they are not witnessed but lived FELT rawly :-) So you can face them fully & transmute them. P.P.S. In the breathwork, I, Mark, don't do the work. I just give up and some greater, wiser being does the work. But I have to commit to it. I have to let it work. (did you ever fight the acid and have a bummer and then let go and have it turn resplendant? that's it.) Mark is still here, but he's getting mellow and less controlling. "I'm" starting to like him. gotta go cry for awhile... P.P.P.S. by now, I really HAVE lost my job!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2000 Report Share Posted April 28, 2000 At 15:46 27/04/00 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Robert, > >I want to keep the conversation going because I really am enjoying it. >I'll snip and respond as I go: > Greetings, Mark, from a fellow soon-to-be-released-from-wage-slavery peon! Did I happen to mention that this conversation is doing me a power of good? No? Well, never mind. >Robert Weil wrote: > snip> >me too. (it's not no-fear; it's do it anyway.) (for me, for now.) Wonder if I'll reach a point where do it anyway will have to be discarded, because it represents still struggling? ) > >> >> Ever been frustrated because a tiny part of you didn't actually die? >> Like >> it would refuse to purify entirely, or so it seemed? > >Oh yes, yes, yes, and yes. Still am... I'm not claiming any sort of >conclusion, being finished at all. I am where you are (as near as I can >tell from here... hi are you in there? I'm in here. how'd you get in >that one? (quoting Ram Dass)). Started OK, but after about nine months I realised it wasn't quite as simple as I'd felt it to be. Still settling in, I guess. ) snip>to be tense so that the relax is also more clear.) The tiny bit that is >not relaxed can sometimes swell up so that I'm completely unrelaxed and >then I can deal with it.) so, when there is a nagging little thing >left, I think that is unfinished business knocking on the door of my >attention. It's often a quiet knock - the knock of a child that has >been ignored for ages and has just the tiniest bit of courage to ask for >help, but will back down right away if not answered, and then creep back >and knock again and again and again because that place he or she is is >untenable. Oh, yes! I think of these as children lost in the forest, who know >that there is something other than cold and wet and lonely, but don't >know what that might be. I can ask them in, and the trick for me is to >let them become raging beasts if that is what they need to do. When they >find out what they were missing all this time, their rage can >explode... Or, to ut it another way, the decompression is large (they >were encrypted in a highly compacted form to become minor aches and >pains and decoding them expands them a lot. interesting way to say it >that I learned here and on NDS... I don't have good words for it. But >in the right place (a safe place) I can be devoured by the beast, and >that reassures the beast who then comes down to size and we can explore >together. That "encryption/compression" is a great way to describe it! The resolution part of the process seems to me the one where I might find the need for outside support, to learn the tracking skills... The other parts of the process I know... Of course, the way things are for me these days, I think perhaps I might get inner help for that last part, what with things being so busy on those levels (they feel highly populated, these days, to me)... As I type this some part of me is enthusiastic about it and >some part is laughing in disgust. Who is right? I dunno. I do care >though. Some part is so sad too... so many parts, all to be loved... Have you ever had that feeling that there is so *much* love everywhere, and yet you felt poor in your own heart, as if somehow you had denied love to yourself, when it was all there for you? How did that happen? And can one stand the irony without feeling ashamed and foolish (which kinda blows the point of accepting the love...)? snip> >Yeah, it seems to have lost most of its ooomph by now. I mostly clear >energy paths Please clarify.... Are you using the standard photon torpedoes, or is there a less dramatic way (such as a snow blower), Captain? and open a little wider to let the room (that is the other >people's suffering and joy and whatever...) in and try to reach to >outside the room. The last time I did this, I mostly explored letting >go. I feel like I'm falling and it's fun to fall now. Wheeeeeeee - >just like when you were a kid and your father was driving you somewhere >but the car suspension wasn't so good and you went over a bump and got >that feeling in your stomach. That's interesting: this speaks right to me, Mark. And I tell you, without feeling the love that pervades everything, I might never attempt it. That's how much it hurts, sometimes. I get that now and then in the elevator >and it gives me nice memories. I laugh at the people that get bothered >by it. (not out loud of course...) I'm always amazed by the way ppl think that playing "The girl from Ipanema" over tiny speakers will allay fears of annihilation... ) I'm convinced there is no bottom >(boy am I in for a surprise!... dunno....) I had an experience recently >of my core essence being fear, and that was big and surprising and even >more surprising was that it wasn't just "fear", it was "just fear". How did the Watcher sort that out? ) I suppose that when the monster comes to eat you, everywhere you look is monster... And then everything is Self... so... John Lilly (the great Dolphin guy) once charted states of mind, and the lowest he experienced was being an atom of insignificance in a mechanical meaningless universe. I guess that for him was *his* fear... >that was nice. Now for the most part when fear comes up, it can be >quickly seen through. I feel a need to consolidate that and make it >thoroughly a part of my life. > >> snip>> it goes deep enough (I think). That's the thing. And after strong LSD >> and >> several big life changes, deep=profound, and I'm so up for that. > >You've already done it. It's not any bigger, it's just something you >can do with others who want to heal, in a controlled way and it's legal >and that's as it should be. It's good therapy which allows a little >suffering in so that it can be felt and healed. For sure. A bit at a time, but >not a vanishingly small bit at a time. candy is dandy, but liquor is >quicker - analysis is... but breathwork... Help me out Dan! I don't >have the rhyme, but I mean that traditional forms of analysis can be >very slow Oh, and *wordy*... ,and breathwork can dislodge stuff that then is worth talking >about and seeing clearly. I think the dislodging process can go pretty >deep, but I think other forms of work are needed to go the last >distance, but we are often doing other kinds of work just as part of >everyday life. That is becoming more and more useful as I notice more of >it. Care to expand on this? snip >more personal effort. If you have done LSD, I suspect you would be good >at breathwork. They are not the same, but they can be similar. I think >they both loosen the firm grip of the normal wakeful state, allowing the >psyche to take you to potentially very healing places. "Nonordinary >states" is the phrase the breathwork community likes to use. > Great. I get the feeling there's definitely something in this for me, and I feel about ready. > >> >> By container, do you mean a space *and* a time? Makes sense to me, and >> do >> you think it's best to begin with a group, or can this be done by a >> fool >> such as me without the training wheels? > >I mean whatever gives you a safe feeling for as long as your exploration >needs to do some real work. The breathwork gives me a community of >like-minded people, who's courage encourages me, and there is a definite >time frame during which I have nothing else I have to deal with and a >space that is dedicated to it and nobody there will be alarmed by my >activity. I'm free to go anywhere I want, and it's a fixed time, so I >can scale the experience to a chunk that I can handle. Are you saying that ppl act as companions, facilitating the space? Or something more? (I could buy a book on this, but right now talking with someone who's done it is infinitely more real). My psyche is >very willing to parcel it out and takes me to places "I" would never >think of, but they are the right places. It's so lovely to trust it >all. And the way it happens for me is to decide to trust it all, and >then find a place that feels safe, and then to do the experiment and let >go completely of all expectations and judgements while I try it. I tell you, once I had decided to trust it all, it would have to include a large challenge: to trust the process of losing the safety of limits. Strange that, because once there, I am serene and centred, but getting there, oh that seems such a big jump. (even >judegements about judgements that arise. that is very useful to me. To >suspend judgement of a judgement and find its source. So if you are >fearful, don't judge the fear just feel it and learn what it is saying >to you. Releasing judgements in the face of fear... Oh Nobly Born one, that's a crux of the biscuit! And it is so desired, in the face of great disappointments and great mercy too. No, you don't sound like a teacher to me, I asked for this, and you have graciously taken time and effort to help me out. You also put things well, and I gain much from that. Thank you, Mark. sorry, I sound like a teacher and I'm not one. I just am >learning about myself by telling it. > >> >>snip >> Yeah, this one needs it to become safer, coz the safety is in the >> healing... >> > >You may find that the healing is in abandoning ideas of safety. > Yes, you're right, and once the safety is not required the healing has done some of its work already... Permit me a small charade of a ripcord here, it helps! ) > >> snip>In brotherhood, >Mark >P.S. From either this list, or its near neighbor, the NonDuality Salon, >this seems relevant here: > > It seems embodiment is about now not witnessing, but actually diving >into Oneness of >what Is. Absorption. In this way whatever personality issues remain for >healing are able to Be >healed from conscious unconditional awareness, as they are not witnessed >but lived FELT rawly :-) So >you can face them fully & transmute them. > Funny, as it happens, I was reading that post yesterday, and that struck home! As did the debate between Greg and Colette re: whether someone who has not yet experienced the Self can discover Self through therapy. I feel that it is possible (as all things can be), but it will happen (as Col says) by an agency that transcends the therapy itself. Happy the person who finds a therapy that allows such an event without putting it (or the person) in a box... >P.P.S. In the breathwork, I, Mark, don't do the work. I just give up >and some greater, wiser being does the work. But I have to commit to >it. I have to let it work. Yes, I see that. Deep breath, and... (did you ever fight the acid and have a >bummer and then let go and have it turn resplendant? that's it.) Yes, quite powerfully. Going with the flow, no matter where the river takes you, leave your mind, relax, and float down stream, it is not dying, it is not dying... Mark >is still here, but he's getting mellow and less controlling. "I'm" >starting to like him. gotta go cry for awhile... True power in the hands of a child. Thanks, Mark! > >P.P.P.S. by now, I really HAVE lost my job!! And I *respect* you for it! ) Much Love Rob > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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