Guest guest Posted May 4, 2000 Report Share Posted May 4, 2000 Thank you Jill, I do speak from ignorance and your message is gratefully received. Having suffered from depression on and off, I know that while from here it was all perfectly safe, from inside the experience it is NOT. I am most likely no where near ready for K, so caveat emptor. (I hope I have done no harm expressing my joyous optimism about surrender.) Love, Mark Jill Eggers wrote: > Hi Mark, > > You didn't address this to me but I am going to respond-- > > At 09:50 AM 5/3/00 -0400, you wrote: > >Hi Rob and Jerry, > > > >Is it really necessary to cultivate fear? If K is active, why resist > > >it? Is the resistance not the very source of "danger"? > > This is a very popular notion to those learning of kundalini, that the > > awakening will be very smooth if one surrenders to it: nice and > blissful > realization of god, pleasant all around. The myth of this idea has > been > roundly dealt with by many more articulate than me on the kundalini > list > over time. Jerry is especially good at this topic. > > Surrender to kundalini is mandatory to a strong awakening; however it > doesn't mean all will be peaceful. It is rather a matter of surrender > to > the discipline of walking on the knife's edge: complete continual > surrender > to the demands of kundalini, to using all one's intellingence and > capabilities to meet her demands: how to keep functioning, how to keep > the > body alive, how to find spiritual techniques that will aid the > process, how > to avoid those that will not (but will instead make you crazy or kill > you). > These are some of the questions of surrender. > > k cleans and > >opens. Sure, if you are committed to selfishness and unaware of > >opening, this can be too powerful, but no one here is in that > situation, > >are we? > > K can be too powerful even if you are deliriously committedd to > moksha. > Whereever there has been desire, attachment or aversion previous to > the > compelling, life-transforming experience of samadhi, or god > realization, or > whatever we want to call it, there is going to be some experience > (read: > pain) in the transformation, the integration of that. It's like a > high-speed karmic roller coaster: the stuff that catches up with you > comes > at incredible speed, your whole past from this life and before, all > your > debts are called in. The pain of this growth and clearing can be very > > real, you can hit a hell of a wall again and again. I know Jerry > speaks > from his own experience, and his cynicism is part of the roller > coaster > ride: at certain points you do wish you could go back and stop the > ride > from having begun! > > We are here because we have been hooked, and God is reeling us > >in. We are finding our bearing so we can swim toward the boat. Stop > > >seeking the boat. The boat is here. Leap into the boat! As wise > folks > >from another list (nonduality salon) say, "Become Grace's lunch. Let > her > >devour you." If you resist it, you feel the chewing and the acid in > the > >stomach. If you surrender to it, you feel your being becoming the > body > >of God. Love everyone. Fear no one. jump. there is no bottom. > falling > >is perfectly safe. > > Perfectly safe is relative. In the relative world, kundalini is not > perfectly safe, but replete with danger. Total surrender to grace is > necessary when k makes herself known--the fall into grace for many is > difficult and painful and long: sometimes feeling of bliss and > ecstasy, > sometimes hell. We do those (on this list and elsewhere) who are > longingly, devotedly, and trustingly walking the knife's edge of > kundalini, > by her own design, an injustice when we suggest that the arduous > nature of > their experience is due to lack of trust, or surrender, or > unacknowledged > selfishness. > > Jill > > ----- > > ----- > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the > nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always > Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart > to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the > Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It > Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link > from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change > your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2000 Report Share Posted May 4, 2000 Hi Mark, You didn't address this to me but I am going to respond-- At 09:50 AM 5/3/00 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Rob and Jerry, > >Is it really necessary to cultivate fear? If K is active, why resist >it? Is the resistance not the very source of "danger"? This is a very popular notion to those learning of kundalini, that the awakening will be very smooth if one surrenders to it: nice and blissful realization of god, pleasant all around. The myth of this idea has been roundly dealt with by many more articulate than me on the kundalini list over time. Jerry is especially good at this topic. Surrender to kundalini is mandatory to a strong awakening; however it doesn't mean all will be peaceful. It is rather a matter of surrender to the discipline of walking on the knife's edge: complete continual surrender to the demands of kundalini, to using all one's intellingence and capabilities to meet her demands: how to keep functioning, how to keep the body alive, how to find spiritual techniques that will aid the process, how to avoid those that will not (but will instead make you crazy or kill you). These are some of the questions of surrender. k cleans and >opens. Sure, if you are committed to selfishness and unaware of >opening, this can be too powerful, but no one here is in that situation, >are we? K can be too powerful even if you are deliriously committedd to moksha. Whereever there has been desire, attachment or aversion previous to the compelling, life-transforming experience of samadhi, or god realization, or whatever we want to call it, there is going to be some experience (read: pain) in the transformation, the integration of that. It's like a high-speed karmic roller coaster: the stuff that catches up with you comes at incredible speed, your whole past from this life and before, all your debts are called in. The pain of this growth and clearing can be very real, you can hit a hell of a wall again and again. I know Jerry speaks from his own experience, and his cynicism is part of the roller coaster ride: at certain points you do wish you could go back and stop the ride from having begun! We are here because we have been hooked, and God is reeling us >in. We are finding our bearing so we can swim toward the boat. Stop >seeking the boat. The boat is here. Leap into the boat! As wise folks >from another list (nonduality salon) say, "Become Grace's lunch. Let her >devour you." If you resist it, you feel the chewing and the acid in the >stomach. If you surrender to it, you feel your being becoming the body >of God. Love everyone. Fear no one. jump. there is no bottom. falling >is perfectly safe. Perfectly safe is relative. In the relative world, kundalini is not perfectly safe, but replete with danger. Total surrender to grace is necessary when k makes herself known--the fall into grace for many is difficult and painful and long: sometimes feeling of bliss and ecstasy, sometimes hell. We do those (on this list and elsewhere) who are longingly, devotedly, and trustingly walking the knife's edge of kundalini, by her own design, an injustice when we suggest that the arduous nature of their experience is due to lack of trust, or surrender, or unacknowledged selfishness. Jill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2000 Report Share Posted May 4, 2000 In a message dated 5/4/00 8:28:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mark.otter writes: << Thank you Jill, I do speak from ignorance and your message is gratefully received. Having suffered from depression on and off, I know that while from here it was all perfectly safe, from inside the experience it is NOT. I am most likely no where near ready for K, so caveat emptor. (I hope I have done no harm expressing my joyous optimism about surrender.) Love, Mark >> Hey Mark, with your honesty and the humility you've expressed here, l'd say you're more ready for kundalini than many l've run into, including so many teachers who have misused their power! But what do l know? My blessing is probably not the letter of introduction you need to be in good standing with Madame K )) love, jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2000 Report Share Posted May 5, 2000 Hi Jill: Your statements cover many of the aspects of kundalini awakening and I agree completely with the importance of surrender. Often we are focused on the more physical and mental dynamics of the process as in sleepless nights, unregulated body temperatures, sounds, sights, emotions, bliss and hell. The proper techniques, food, activities are needed to keep from disintegration. Your mention of all our past in this life and before, all debts called in is important because that is where surrender can become very tricky. Mother Shakti does not just rearrange our energy and perceptions she works on the entire life and that appears (at least in my life) to take a long, long time. Often one can feel as if she is working in total darkness and at times, using intelligence, meditation, desire or proper action does not straighten out the crazy darkness that passes for the life one is leading. At those times after one has exhausted other options i.e.., talking to a 'civilian', using the rational mind, ranting and raving it appears only opening up one's hands and consciously surrendering to the 'self', to grace, to Shakti or God does relief come our way and one gets 'sane' in the 'insanity' of it all. It's always good to hear from you Jill. Love, Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2000 Report Share Posted May 5, 2000 ~Hi everyone. I have greatly admired & enjoyed the posts lately especially discussing kundalini. It was good hearing from Jill again too. I wanted to tell Jill that there is a very experienced TM teacher running the BhagavadGita list on . BUT hmm he is not knowing how powerful that technique can be on unleashing overwhelming symptoms of purification (but I told him :-))) Yes Ed is up front & understanding about talking about what we have here lately. Hi Jill: Your statements cover many of the aspects of kundalini awakening and I agree completely with the importance of surrender. Often we are focused on the more physical and mental dynamics of the process as in sleepless nights, unregulated body temperatures, sounds, sights, emotions, bliss and hell. The proper techniques, food, activities are needed to keep from disintegration. ~Wow Harsha this is a powerful statement. But I think I understand where you might be coming from. Do you ever feel a challenge to 'stay' embodied? Is that what you mean? Gosh! :-)) Your mention of all our past in this life and before, all debts called in is important because that is where surrender can become very tricky. Mother Shakti does not just rearrange our energy and perceptions she works on the entire life and that appears (at least in my life) to take a long, long time. ~Yes me too Harsha. Often one can feel as if she is working in total darkness and at times, using intelligence, meditation, desire or proper action does not straighten out the crazy darkness that passes for the life one is leading. At those times after one has exhausted other options i.e.., talking to a 'civilian', using the rational mind, ranting and raving it appears only opening up one's hands and consciously surrendering to the 'self', to grace, to Shakti or God does relief come our way and one gets 'sane' in the 'insanity' of it all. ~Yes what passes as sanity in this realm is not very sane at all. Bye now, Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2000 Report Share Posted May 5, 2000 Thanks, Mark. I appreciated your response. Jill At 11:30 AM 5/4/00 -0400, you wrote: >Thank you Jill, > >I do speak from ignorance and your message is gratefully received. >Having suffered from depression on and off, I know that while from here >it was all perfectly safe, from inside the experience it is NOT. I am >most likely no where near ready for K, so caveat emptor. (I hope I have >done no harm expressing my joyous optimism about surrender.) > >Love, Mark > >Jill Eggers wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2000 Report Share Posted May 5, 2000 Hi Colette, I was glad to see you show up on this list, and I am tardy in welcoming you here! I will check out that that bhagavad gita list when I get a chance. How are you? Has it really been a year since you stopped meditating? How is that going for you? Love, Jill At 12:04 AM 5/6/00 +1000, you wrote: >~Hi everyone. I have greatly admired & enjoyed the posts lately >especially discussing kundalini. It was good hearing from Jill again >too. I wanted to tell Jill that there is a very experienced TM teacher >running the BhagavadGita list on . BUT hmm he is not knowing how >powerful that technique can be on unleashing overwhelming symptoms of >purification (but I told him :-))) Yes Ed is up front & understanding >about talking about what we have here lately. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2000 Report Share Posted May 5, 2000 Hello Jill :-) It is lovely to speak to you again. Jill Eggers wrote: > Hi Colette, > > I was glad to see you show up on this list, and I am tardy in welcoming you > here! I will check out that that bhagavad gita list when I get a chance. > How are you? Has it really been a year since you stopped meditating? How > is that going for you? Well Jill it is funny. I received a Gift from Maharishi, I think. That is why I stopped meditating after a friend advised me to. The gift was I became Nothing. Since then I cannot do TM. My brain can't go somewhere beyond, like it did before. I am now God's meditation during thought. I kinda got reversed. On the way in, I needed to transcend thought to find God. Now He's here anyway. And 'I' kinda got transcended. What a surprise! I never expected that :-) I was kinda pissed off, at first. This Gift showed me Maharishi's power to Bless. He showed me my Self. Darling I did not miss meditation. You knew how overwhelming my purifications had been. I also knew I could not lose anything, & the Energy was here now & would still work on me ~ & it has. I have had more clearing, learnings, & initiations. I had a need to slow it down, to integrate & understand what was happening. I did not want to become that flat a wave ever again. So still, no bliss nor heart was there. No body. No God. Awareness as Existence ~ yes. Simplest state of awareness ~ just Is. >From That Isness, thought arose of where's Col? Col was not there. I desired Col back. I wanted to be a mother to my children again. Back I came & with all my aches & pains & personality, minus something, but I couldn't rememember what was gone. Lucky I have a friend who knew what to say to me. I couldn't seem to locate myself in space. There was nothing to feel .. essentially. When I came back to my personality, I was faced with its shock some weeks later. It started to fight, fear, & want to seek. I could not think in the same way as before. Seeking was counter productive, even painful. It was a whole new ball game cept no one had told me the rules. I was lucky one friend knew what to say ... for the ego structure in itself (as personality,) has a self destructive drive in it. Andrew Cohen calls it the Destroyer, Ken Wilber calls it Thanatos - death wish (even Paul Ferrini in His Christ Mind Reflections book explains this death wish we face). Coming back to my personality meant I saw up close what I had been previously wearing as self. I tried to get back into my previous self. I could not in the same way. My friend told me 'keep coming back to the heart' cept I couldn't find it. I couldn't 'find' me. And there was the self destructive fear available to identify with. That was the ego. Ego does not love you. Never believe, it has your best interests at heart. Yet to play here personally (for God's sake) means to be manifest too, (an ego of some sort). Impersonal God moves into personal(ity) for His Lila. That's what I had been shown. I am sure there is much more for me to learn ahead., I knew my friend loved me unconditionally so I began to feel again. I knew love again. At Source, love is not felt. Shiva is Still. He needs to move, to make Love & dance. I began to learn how to stir myself. I have been learning a lot. Learning still continues. I love it. I have been taught from That level you can think anything you want, cause essentially there's nothing there. From this thought, comes your creation. Enjoy It as you Will. I am guided by the process ItSelf. Evolution is forever ... and I saw my task was, & is, to unconditionally love myself. Then I will be able to offer it properly to others. I am learning about unconditional Love. I learnt that the ego cannot love. That is just a conditional mask, with conditions for loving. All projections. I saw I am not my personality but I can dance in it with the pains & the enjoyments & it is my pleasure to do so. I guess I am balancing my stillness & my movement. Balance. I see there is a relationship of acceptance, between the two .. if not ... well .. you can have fun dancing as resistance. :-)) In any case it's the dance, & Shiva likes to dance! (Nothing likes to make Love as something, & emptiness is full). I am in a new learning stage .. Actually Jill, (& I think this is importnat given the talks we have had on physical & mental & emotional challenges during purification through kundalini's fire) .. For me it seems I have been shown that the self destructive thoughts hidden deep in the psyche, are what distort the form, so it hurts. It is years of self judgement. I feel it is kind of like God has us here playing as unloving self .. & then he shows us the consequences of those thoughts. And then He gets to Play as us learning to accept our unconditional Self (& coming back to transform our form (healing) ~ through non judgement of our own duality play, & to unconditionally Love & forgive ourself into a new personal Being. Maybe it could be said that non judgement is impersonal Being, marrying the personal. When I close my eyes now, it is not the TM technique. Meditation can be during thought. It makes no difference. Love, Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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