holotropic/kundalini/Mark/Rob

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/3/00 6:50:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

mark.otter writes:

 

<<

Is it really necessary to cultivate fear? If K is active, why resist

it? Is the resistance not the very source of "danger"? k cleans and

opens. Sure, if you are committed to selfishness and unaware of

opening, this can be too powerful, but no one here is in that situation,

are we? We are here because we have been hooked, and God is reeling us

in. We are finding our bearing so we can swim toward the boat. Stop

seeking the boat. The boat is here. Leap into the boat! As wise folks

from another list (nonduality salon) say, "Become Grace's lunch. Let her

devour you." If you resist it, you feel the chewing and the acid in the

stomach. If you surrender to it, you feel your being becoming the body

of God. Love everyone. Fear no one. jump. there is no bottom. falling

is perfectly safe.

>>

 

Hello Mark (Rob too ),

l always enjoy reading your posts, seriously(!), and l want to make

it clear, Mark, that l support the work you're doing with holotropic

breathwork. l do feel it's different if one has an active k process, altho l

recognize that every k active person has to make his/her own decision,

bearing in mind that no 2 processes are alike.

l completely agree

that neither resistance nor fear is good for k. But one could say that

forcing the energy is also a form of resistance: resisting what the energy

wants to do on its own -- and my concern is that something as powerful as

holotropic breathwork could be the equivalent of forcing it. Holotropic

breathwork goes against the gentle, respectful approach that is generally

recommended for k experiencers.

 

As with everything else on the spiritual path, there's a fine

line to be walked. lt's not helpful to fear kundalini, but a failure to

respect its awesome power can have disastrous consequences. l know from

personal experience: l have several long standing medical problems that have

not only severely limited my life but have placed it in danger. l think some

of this wouldn't have happened if l would have respected the power of the

energy more than l did.

Many others have had it

far worse. l have a friend whose k has prevented him from working for 4 years

and has made his life a living hell, with no end in sight. l have a close

internet friend whose life has never returned to normal after his k

experience began 30 years ago. He's developed a website which provides links

and resources for people with k problems. l assist him in responding to

people who ask for feedback, and even after all the horror stories l've

been exposed to, l still see accounts that shock me. He and l have

corresponded alot with El Collie, whose work has exposed her to hundreds of

people like us, and her views are similar to ours. There are many authors,

such as Gene Kieffer, Glenn Morris, Yvonne Kason, and others we've spoken to,

who also emphasize the need for caution with k. The Tibetan lamas l've spoken

to also feel strongly about this.

Many

of the severe problem cases l've talked to went thru an early period, just

like l did, in which they were excited about k, were having a good

experience, and trusted it to take care of them. l certainly wasn't resisting

it, and l don't think most of these people were either. We had the same

feeling Rob expressed in his post, that k is not other than us, it's a divine

power after all, so how can it possibly be harmful? The only way one can know

how untrue this can be is to suffer the harm, or perhaps become closely

involved with those who have.

This has

been an agonizing dilemma for me: if k is a divine force, how can it cause

such harm -- even on rare occasions, death -- to people? The only thing l've

been able to conclude is that altho k may be a powerful tool for spiritual

growth, it does not necessarily respect our physical and mental health.

Therefore, l discriminate between having faith in k spiritually and having

faith in k to take care of my well being here on earth. To me, this means l

have to take care of myself.

Most people who come into contact

with k will not have serious problems., and l don't mean to inject fear. lt's

just good to know that there is risk and reason for respecting its power if

one does encounter it. lf the respect is there, the risk is reduced, altho

even then genuine harm can still occur. We simply don't always know why some

have much more radical experiences than others.

l

do appreciate kundalini as a transformational journey, and my own process is

progressing well enough now that l feel optimistic, so long as it doesn't

kill me first (LOL!). When l respond to people in the throes of a k struggle,

l always try to offer hope and encourage them to see the spiritual potential

of their experience. lf k happens to you, acceptance, gratitude and hope are

the best options. But because of the risks involved, l personally don't feel

one should seek it out. lt is not, after all, the only way to God.

 

One of the main things l've

learned from kundalini is that l never needed kundalini in the first place.

The powerful energy states it offers are not the essence of spirituality.

Hey, l don't doubt they're wonderful -- l've had a small taste and am

certainly looking forward to more -- but evidence abounds that unfortunately

they don't assure true spirituality and in fact appear just as likely to lead

us astray. They are not synonymous with courage, compassion and transcendent

wisdom.

Well, l wrote this post this morning and now just read

Harsha's post and realize it's superfluous!!! So just ignore everything l've

said. )) Except that as l said, Rob, everyone's process is different and

you know yourself and your process better than anyone else. l strongly

believe that we are each uniquely qualified to make our own choices, and l

don't mean to infringe on this -- it's just hard when this subject arises to

resist speaking my truth, at least as it appears to me now. l'd be glad to

provide a url for my friend's website (and any others) on this.

 

love ,

jerry

[Guest guest]

>

 

Dear Jerry,

 

the only thing I see to disagree with in your wonderful post is this

one:

>

> Well, l wrote this post this morning and now just

> read

> Harsha's post and realize it's superfluous!!!

 

While you MAY have written it in the morning, it's not superfluous, and

I am glad I received it. I'm resending it to myself so I can read it at

home. I'd love to have the url you mention too.

 

thanks,

Mark

[Guest guest]

snip> Hello Mark (Rob too ),

 

jerry!

 

Thanks for this post. ) The whole thread is immensly welcome to me. I'm

glad you ppl are there.

 

snip> As with everything else on the spiritual path, there's

a fine

>line to be walked. lt's not helpful to fear kundalini, but a failure to

>respect its awesome power can have disastrous consequences. l know from

>personal experience: l have several long standing medical problems that have

>not only severely limited my life but have placed it in danger. l think some

>of this wouldn't have happened if l would have respected the power of the

>energy more than l did.

 

hey, all of you,

 

I'm going to out on a limb here.

 

Let me see:

 

1) I understand that K is an energy that has effects that cannot be

controlled, at least as one wishes.

 

2) I understand that *some* ppl have little or no trouble with K as it arises.

 

3) I understand the nature of K is not the essence of spirituality, it is a

facet of an energetic jewel. As such it is not necessary for awakening

spirituality.

 

4) I understand that trust in K does not guarantee or even necessarilly

facilitate the K process, nor alleviate the painful effects.

 

 

In the light of the above,

 

@ a) what *is* K? I have heard so many discussions, arguments, about this.

The words "heated debate" spring to mind...

 

K as I understand it is not prana. I have experienced both, and it ain't

that, although K seems to be nurtured by prana.

 

K seems to involve a time/space Tao factor. In that I mean it exists in the

here and now, powerfully.

Transcendental peaks can call it forth. This energy seems to respond to

one-pointedness of thought too.

 

Whatever it "is", what does the definition assume of our energetic systems,

and who we are? ~)

 

@ b) Since K seems to demand energy clearing within the aura/chakra system,

what is its function? Is it the doctor *and* the patient? Is it simply a

force of Being that only understands the need to Be?

 

Re this, what does it do, other than the deleterous symptoms that many have

felt? How does it carry out what it does... eg if it clears blockages in

chakras, how does it do this? How is a blockage cleared - is it dissolved,

burnt up, transmuted into light, integrated into the chakra's energy?

 

@ c) What is K to us? How do we experience it, in the sense that we "see"

it happening? How do our (pre)conceptions affect the experience? What part

do fear, love, anger, hurt, hope, faith, and spiritual understanding play?

 

@ d) What is K's purpose? Is it part of the Human unfolding that ultimately

frees? Is it the very essence of Purpose, arising from the phenomenon of

Purpose, and with no other aim? Does it have a mutational/genetic agenda?

If so, what?

 

@ e) What part are we to play? How are we able to cohabit in the body with

what we perceive to be an Other force? Does this sense of Otherness make

the situation worse? Have we missed a method, an approach, an understanding

somewhere? If K is inherent in our biological/spiritual development, have

we no capabiliites to engineer our own salvation? Are we in fact the

dreamer and the dreamed, or just the dreamed? ~)

 

@ f) Perhaps the most easy question, judging by the various methods

discussed: what can we do about the process to facilitate and heal the

process? Depending on the answers to (e), we are able to do this, or we are

not.

 

Personally, I'm standing by the reality that says we are agents of change,

and we have a say. Egos all, but also a longing for the One, and therefore

agents of change. Are we the change we seek to bring about?

 

 

I read many accounts, and many quotes and maps. All thought provoking.

Where is the knowing in the faith, the knowledge of the purpose behind

this? And why do we disagree? Could it be we don't know enough, yet? Or are

we chasing our tails?

 

 

I may be going on about something that wearies some ppl, in which case

please pass on. But I would like to know some of these answers, if only to

understand my own and my friends' experience better.

 

 

snip>

> One of the main things l've

>learned from kundalini is that l never needed kundalini in the first place.

 

I heard that..!

 

snip>you know yourself and your process better than anyone else. l strongly

>believe that we are each uniquely qualified to make our own choices, and l

>don't mean to infringe on this -- it's just hard when this subject arises to

>resist speaking my truth, at least as it appears to me now. l'd be glad to

>provide a url for my friend's website (and any others) on this.

 

 

Yes, please, jerry! I thank you for putting all this so well. And for your

care.

 

 

Thanks Mark, Jill, Harsha, for a helpful thread!

 

Love

 

Rob

>

> love ,

> jerry

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Robert Weil wrote:

>

> Let me see:

>

 

Dear Rob, an excellent set of questions, much to ponder... Thus far, I

have two responses. (I think one from my reason and one from my

intuition)

 

reason: "Uh... I dunno..."

 

intuition:

 

(from Chris Williamson's album The Changer and the Changed", the song

Waterfall:)

 

When you open up your life to the living, all things come

spilling in on you.

And you're flowing like a river, the Changer

and the Changed.

You got to spill some over, over all...

 

Filling up and spilling over, it's an endless waterfall,

Filling up and spilling over, over all.

Filling up and spilling over, it's an endless waterfall,

Filling up and spilling over, over all.

 

What I've learned in holotropic work is to let it flow through.

(everything) It's the internal hooks that catch us. I can only speak

for the experiences I've had, so if being wary is your style, beware, if

being aware is your style, be aware. (that sounds more like an opinion

than I mean it to - it comes from a true striving to accept unknowing...

yes, it is paradoxical, but that's okay too.)

 

LOve, Mark