Guest guest Posted July 8, 2000 Report Share Posted July 8, 2000 - Parisi & Watson Advaitin posts <advaitin > Saturday, July 08, 2000 7:01 PM Feasibility versus Truth, or Making It 'Real' In my humble opinion Advaita is certainly one of the most, perhaps the most, profound ideas ever to grace the human mind, and it's one with which I've been involved in one regard or another off and on for around thirty years. It is intellectually and aesthetically elegant, internally consistent, and for all practical purposes philosophically impregnable. It seems safe to say that all these attributes add up to a very high degree of feasibility. I can imagine someone becoming totally convinced of its truth merely on an intellectual basis. Ramana Maharshi and others can be very compelling, and at some point such a person might just acquiesce and say, "Yes, I already am the Self, and that's the end of it." Although this statement is philosophically correct from the perspective of Vedanta, wouldn't something be missing from such an affirmation in the absence of deep spiritual experience? All of us no doubt have had moments of deep peace or profound meditative stillness, but how many of us have actually had 'the' experience that can never be doubted or forgotten? And in the absence of that experience, aren't we just repeating philosophical claims, the truth of which we have become convinced? They are very feasible claims to be sure, but still just claims without any substantial verification. And it's a well known fact of life that strongly held and highly feasible philosophical ideas can still be wrong. So my question is this: What can make it 'real' to us? What can move us along from the affirmation of profound philosophical ideas to something that is actually real to us in a living way, beyond intellectual question? And I ask this question on behalf of people who are rushing along through life trying to do their best, but who are a little distracted, maybe a little neurotic, mired in some bad habits and attitudes, and so appear to have no realistic prospect for full realization in the foreseeable future. This description probably fits the majority of the human race. For those of us who will in all likelihood never be another Ramakrishna or Ramana, what can make Advaita 'real' to us? Robert. ~~~~~~~ Your question is quite profound. Only we can make Advaita "real" to us, since the Avidya (ignorance) is of our own mind which has to be cleansed by ourselves. If we can deliberately "drop" our minds and function in that state for a day, an hour, or at least a minute with our hearts and without any doubt or question, we should see our "reality" in that time. Coming across another Ramakrishna or Ramana, does not make Advaita "real" to us. We can see them, admire them, talk about them, be humble to them, totally impressed by them, and accept them as great Advaitins. But none of that can make Advaita "real" to us except intellectually. For most of us this is what happens! -- Vis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2000 Report Share Posted July 9, 2000 Hi Robert and Amanda, >>Robert: >>In my humble opinion Advaita is certainly one of the most, perhaps the most, >>profound ideas ever to grace the human mind, and it's one with which I've >>been involved in one regard or another off and on for around thirty years. >>It is intellectually and aesthetically elegant, internally consistent, and >>for all practical purposes philosophically impregnable. >>snip< > >>ideas can still be wrong. So my question is this: What can make it 'real' to >>us? What can move us along from the affirmation of profound philosophical >>ideas to something that is actually real to us in a living way, beyond >>intellectual question? And I ask this question on behalf of people who are >>snip< >Amanda: >I personally find the method of self inquiry >very effective in centering the individual >consciousness onto itself. I also find this >method one way of getting beyond mere intellectual >understanding or acceptance to something that can >be used every day and in almost every situation. >snip< >The only other "method" that comes to mind that can >work, is the activity of Kundalini in the body/mind. >There are probably many other methods that can work >besides this, but only self inquiry I feel really circumvents >the little neuroses and problems of the mind. Why not just be direct? You want to find that "something that is actually real to us in a living way"... You suspect that there is something beyond us that is real and alive and conscious and intelligent beyond our imagination, and you want to know. You suspect the universe beats with a heart and spirit that can be known by a human being, that "cares' enough to be accessible to a man, and you want to know. Why not just ask? Confront it/him/her? Jesus said, "Ask, and you will be answered... Knock, and the door will open... Seek, and you will find." Gautama sat down under a tree and determined not to leave there until he found what he was seeking... and he found it. If you see a beautiful woman across a crowded room, and you _really_ want to meet her, how long will you sit and mull over all the theoretical possibilities... whether she is actually real, or whether the beauty you see is only a projection of your own mind... in what ways it might be possible to actually get to know her... and whether she can actually be known in her fullness at all? Of course, if you think about it long enough, the party will be over, and you won't have to actually walk across that room and look her in the eyes... Is that too scary a prospect? Is it easier to sit and think? On the other hand, you could decide to reform yourself and clean up your act before you meet her... go on a diet and lose weight... start living in a way that she is more likely to approve of... become the kind of man that she would really like to meet... you think... You could do that, but you might be losing out on wonderful months and years that you could have had with her. If you really want to meet her... and if you've got the chutzpah... why not just walk over to her and say hello... introduce yourself... and start talking? Say hello to the universe... Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2000 Report Share Posted July 9, 2000 >>snip< >Amanda: >I personally find the method of self inquiry >very effective in centering the individual >consciousness onto itself. I also find this >method one way of getting beyond mere intellectual >understanding or acceptance to something that can >be used every day and in almost every situation. >snip< >The only other "method" that comes to mind that can >work, is the activity of Kundalini in the body/mind. >There are probably many other methods that can work >besides this, but only self inquiry I feel really circumvents >the little neuroses and problems of the mind. snip You could do that, but you might be losing out on wonderful months and years that you could have had with her. If you really want to meet her... and if you've got the chutzpah... why not just walk over to her and say hello... introduce yourself... and start talking? Say hello to the universe... Love, Dharma Thanks to you both for excellent responses. One reason I am forwarding, besides that it was such a good question for discussion, is that my time to write is very limited lately. The question of mere intellectual acceptance vs making it real and applicable to one's own life..is to just do it. You are so right, when one is confronted that the house is burning down, one does not consult a book on "how" to escape or wait for better conditions for leaving! And yes too, Amanda, self-inquiry is a method that begins to immediately increase awareness and will "work" in the long run. Because we read the wisdom of great sages perhaps there is a mistaken notion arising that the purpose is only for becoming a great sage just like Ramana. Yet even there, Nisargadatta was only a very ordinary householder who became realized later in life because he actually applied the instructions of his guru. Anything is possible! Why not just say say hello, indeed. With love, Glo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2000 Report Share Posted July 9, 2000 In a message dated 7/9/00 5:24:45 AM, fisher1 writes: >Why not just be direct? > >You want to find that "something that is actually real to us in a living >way"... You suspect that there is something beyond us that is real and >alive and conscious and intelligent beyond our imagination, and you want >to know. You suspect the universe beats with a heart and spirit that can >be known by a human being, that "cares' enough to be accessible to a man, >and you want to know. > >Why not just ask? Confront it/him/her? > > <snip> > >Say hello to the universe... > >Love, >Dharma Thanks, Dharma, for sharing your clarity of vision. It was just what I needed to hear today (as I have been pondering action vs. inaction and self-inquiry vs. silence). I certainly realize that this pondering has been keeping me in dualistic thinking (and has provided fuel for my mind to spin its wheels, which it is all too willing to do because I think that it senses my efforts to put the breaks on). You have clearly elucidated my longing, and hearing it from another helps to realize that the walls of separateness I usually feel are but barriers of my own making. And thanks also to all the others who have been posting recently. I often hear from you guys exactly what I need to hear at exactly the right time. It's awfully cool how that works. Namaste, my friends. I hope the upcoming week is kind to you. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2000 Report Share Posted July 10, 2000 > Hi Robert and Amanda, > Why not just be direct? snipping good stuff... > Say hello to the universe... > > Love, > Dharma Hello Dharma Antoine ========== Love this story: THE VIRGIN UNIVERSE >From The Vision and The Voice 9th Aethyr "We are come unto a palace of which every stone is a separate jewel, and is set with millions of moons. "And this palace is nothing but the body of a woman, proud and delicate, and beyond imagination fair. She is like a child of twelve years old. She has very deep eyelids, and long lashes. Her eyes are closed, or nearly closed. It is impossible to say anything about her. She is naked; her whole body is covered with fine gold hairs, that are the electric flames which are the spears of mighty and terrible Angels whose breastplates are the scales on her skin. And the hair of her head, that flows to her feet, is the very light of God himself. Of all the glories beheld by the Seer in the Aethyrs, there is not one which is worthy to be compared with her littlest finger-nail. For although he may not partake of the Aethyr, without the ceremonial preparations, even beholding of this Aethyr from afar is like the partaking of all the former Aethyr. "The Seer is lost in wonder, which is Peace. "And the ring of the horizon above her are a compagny of glorious Archangels with joined hands, that stand and sing: This is the daugther of BABALON the Beautiful, that she hath borne unto the Father of All. And unto all hath she borne her. "This is the daughter of the King. This is the Virgin of Eternity. This is she that the Holy One hath wrested from the Giant Time, and the prize of them that have overcome Space. This is she that is set upon the Throne of understanding. Holy, Holy, Holy is her name not to be spoken among men. For Koré they have called her, and Malkah, and Betulah, and Persephone. "And the poets have feigned songs about her, and the prophets have spoken in vain things, and the young men have dreamed vain dreams: but this is she, that immaculate, the name of whose name may not be spoken. Thought cannot pierce the glory that defendeth her, for thought is smitten dead before her presence. Memory is blank, and in the most ancient book of Magick are neither words to conjure her, nor adorations to praise her. Will bends like a reed in the tempests that sweep the borders of her kingdom, and imagination cannot figure so much as one petal of the lilies whereon she standeth in the lake of crystal, in the sea of glass. "This is she that hath bedecked her hair with seven stars, the seven breaths of God that move and thrill its excellence. And she hath tired her hair with seven combs, whereupon are written the seven secret names of God that are not known even of the Angels, or the Archangels, or the Leader of the armies of the Lord. "Holy, Holy, Holy art thou, and blessed be thy name for ever, unto whom the Aeons are but the pulsing of thy Blood." http://pages.infinit.net/carrea/tree/osho/zen022.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2000 Report Share Posted July 10, 2000 Gloria Lee <glee > Thanks to you both for excellent responses. One reason I am forwarding, besides that > it was such a good question for discussion, is that my time to write is very limited > lately. The question of mere intellectual acceptance vs making it real and applicable > to one's own life..is to just do it. You are so right, when one is confronted that > the house is burning down, one does not consult a book on "how" to escape or wait for > better conditions for leaving! And yes too, Amanda, self-inquiry is a method that > begins to immediately increase awareness and will "work" in the long run. Because we > read the wisdom of great sages perhaps there is a mistaken notion arising that the > purpose is only for becoming a great sage just like Ramana. Yet even there, > Nisargadatta was only a very ordinary householder who became realized later in life > because he actually applied the instructions of his guru. Anything is possible! Why > not just say say hello, indeed. > > With love, > Glo Hello Gloria Antoine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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