[K-list] The Botttom Line - and The Path

[Guest guest]

Hello Harsha and List,

As my literary agent, Harshaji has insisted that l post this ) -- it's

a short post by Angelique on the k list followed by a long post by me. (Since

this list seemed to be taking a summer vacation, l resumed mischief making

over there, so haven't been posting here much lately.)

 

l thought that lf you could wade thru the

long self indulgent tripe about me, you might find some of the larger issues

worth considering. (Yes, you're still my agent, Harshaji, but there will

still be no book till l'm fuly realized, so don't spend that commission --

you may have a long wait...)

jerrysan

 

 

 

<<

In a message dated 7/9/00 6:17:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

Mystress writes:

 

<<

A Faith based position:

There is nothing that happens that is not Divine will.

Death is too important a transition ever to be an "accident".

Abusers and victims make a soul agreement as to the roles they will play

for each other, before incarnating. The purpose of these roles is shaping

uniqueness, evolving personalities. Challenge provokes creativity.

 

Limitless manifestation suggest that all roles that can be thought

of, must manifest, somewhere. Unconditional love suggests that all

experiences have value, because everything is Goddess experiencing Herself.

Goddess doesn't judge. We do.. as part of the roles we play, in

service to limitless manifestation.

 

 

Well ......... you two cannot see eye to

eye because you are each looking at the concept from different chakras.

Describing a different universe.

David is taking the higher chakra view that All is perception, Jerry

is arguing on behalf of the "reality" based second chakra issues of

judgment and practicality on a physical level where there are murderers and

victims and the lines are black and white.

It appears that Jerry has chosen this attitude because he likes to

play Devil's advocate... I've been known to do that, myself..

Blessings..

>>

 

(J) l tried to express my thoughts twice yesterday on this post, and stopped

each time after writing several paragraphs, realizing it didn't feel right.

lt touched on areas that go pretty deep -- that have many layers for me. ln

my post "lt's about Truth, Not Murder" a couple days ago l tried to explain

my thing about truth, which - rightly or wrongly - is why l've argued as l

have. lt was a beginning, altho it didn't hit on everything. As Angelique

says, l often argue positions that one could call lower chakra based. But the

higher chakra perspective is important to me too, of course.

l've talked

before about how my k has been pretty devoid of mystical experience. Not only

that, but it's caused physical problems that have impacted me in many ways,

significantly limiting me socially, sexually, in not feeling able to travel

and in having to discontinue all spiritual practice for several years now. lt

continues to progress in its own mysterious way, but the effects persist,

including the impact this has had on my spiritual approach.

 

One of the effects of my k experience has

been to put me in a no man's land of sorts, which l imagine most experiencers

can relate to in some way. For me, it means that l feel a sense of separation

from non k people who can't understand what's happened and its effect on me.

l also feel removed somewhat from k people who,unlike me, feel they've been

granted access to a higher realm, ie a view from the higher chakras. Yeah,

l've had to deal with the feeling that l got all the shit that comes with k

but not the goodies. K has prevented me from actively living or exploring

either the upper or lower chakra perspectives. Please note: this ain't a

complaint -- l've learned how much worse it could be -- just an explanation.

 

l've read the higher chakra stuff, of course, to the point of ad

nauseum. But l've had very little experience of it, and as l said in my

*Truth* post, l tend to have faith only in what l experience, and l prefer to

speak from what l've experienced. So l don't talk upper chakra view very

much.

l've wondered if my k

experience hasn't gone this way in order to prevent me from getting too

carried away with the mystical or upper chakra view. After all, this was the

view l coveted, long before my k arose, and this was the realm to which l was

sure l would gain access when k did begin. l'd already avidly studied and

traveled widely in search of it for years before k awakened in 92.

 

When l consider k's impact, it comes down primarily to these

two things: one, that l've been forced against my conscious desire to fully

consider the physical plane at all times, like it or not; two, that as a

lifelong doubter l've been forced to try to nurture faith without benefit of

direct mystical experience. As a wildly romantic dreamer, one who has sought

transcendance beyond the limitations of the physical world my entire life,

the psychic pain has been intense and never ending. Of course, the beauty

of feeling increased compassion and interconnectedness at a deeper level as a

result of this suffering has also been intense.

So, l

argue the lower chakra perspective partly because k has continually directed

my focus toward the physical plane. Life on the physical plane is filled with

mind numbing horror that l feel very, very few people permit themselves to

face. lnstead we ignore it or use any number of devices to escape from it,

and the higher chakra perspective is unquestionably the most powerful and

eloquent tool of escape there is. (Of course, it's also the most powerful

tool for coping with it.) That doesn't mean that l wish to question the

validity of this view -- altho l'm a doubter and lack direct mystical

experience, it's as important to me as anyone else --but rather whether it's

being used at any given time to escape, deny or trivialize what we can't bear

to see.

 

Unfortunately its track record is far from spotless. We've seen chronic

instances of teachers espousing an upper chakra view orientation that have

apparently forgotten where they came from. At its worst, this view carries

the danger of monstrously inflating the ego and launching huge, destructive

power trips, leaving the inevitable clutter of bodies in its wake. Of course,

from the higher chakra perspective, all the shit that happens to third

persons is simply part of the grand cosmic scheme: no *real* harm done. But

to most people like myself, who are not privy to this perspective, this upper

chakra rationale just doesn't wash. Maybe l'll experience it for myself at

some point and feel differently, but that's not where l -- and most others on

this planet -- are now.

 

Of course, no one on this list has embarked on any dangerous power trip via

the upper chakra view to my knowledge. But there's still a smaller danger, of

seeing things on the physical plane less clearly, less compassionately, if

one lives from the perspective that the incomprehensible suffering on this

plane isn't *real*; that those who are suffering or struggling are doing so

primarily because they don't *get it* or for some other self serving

spiritual reason. We cannot help but be shaped by our experiences, and my

long, brutal, thankless k experience has made it very difficult for me to

trivialize suffering or lack compassion.

 

lt's been said that the spiritual path is a three legged stool. The legs are

faith, doubt and effort. According to this view doubt is a necessary part of

the path, fueling the need for effort. Knowing that for me doubt has always

come so much easier than faith, l've relied on effort. That's why l looked to

eastern esoteric paths in the first place. l thought they offered the best

vehicles and rewards for effort. Effort has always been part of my make-up

anyway, as l've been working on myself internally most of my adult life.

 

Perhaps one thing l was

destined to learn from k is what to do when all effort is futile. Every place

l turned for help ended up being a blind alley. No teacher or teaching could

help, no doctor or healer could help, no medicine or herb could help -- there

was no technique that k would even let me use. l had been pretty successful

at everything l'd done previous to k, but now there was nothing l or anyone

else could do. So what do you do when you're desperate to exert effort -- any

kind of effort -- but there is no effort that can be put to any useful

purpose? When any form of effort only makes matters worse? All l could do

was try to get thru each day and maintain as much faith and hope as l could.

lt's not very different today.

As someone who still

desperately wants to believe in upper chakra perspectives, there's one more

thing that concerns me. What does it mean when the upper chakra views of

various mystics contradict each other? There's a story -- don't know if it's

true or not --- a renowned western mystic died suddenly at an

interdenominational spiritual retreat. Two days later a Tibetan lama

approached his widow and said,"l've seen your husband. He didn't grasp

dharmakaya at the first opportunity, but he's making his way thru the bardo

and is doing fine." An hour later a Catholic monk approached her and said,

"l've seen your husband. He's with the Lord Jesus and is being escorted up to

heaven." An hour later a Hindu approached her and said, "l've seen your

husband. He's with Krishna and the gopis....."

l

used to do several retreats at Omega lnstitute every summer, often back to

back. One year l did a Tibetan retreat and had several conversations with a

tulku about reincarnation, a subject in which he was quite insightful. ln the

next retreat my own sufi teacher, whom l respected greatly, conveyed the

teachings of the saint Hazrat lnayat Kahn which explicitly teach a contrary

view. Murshid's book on the subject is quite definitive, in fact. lt's a

pretty interesting cosmology that l'd be glad to share some other time--one

that's eerily similar to reincarnation but definitely different.

 

l'm also reminded of

the conflicts when l think of the visitations associated with Lourdes, Fatima

and several others in the Catholic faith. l'm not Catholic, but these have

appeared very genuine to me. The Virgin Mary, or whoever it is, never fails

to talk about praying for sinners, etc., certainly not kosher talk from an

upper chakra nondualist perspective, right??

 

So ... l'm with Llewellyn in wanting to see a unified

field theory of spirituality. lt would sure help a pathetic lower chakra

hacker like me and would boost my confidence in upper chakra perspectives )

 

 

jerry

[Guest guest]

<GCWein1111

> So ... l'm with Llewellyn in wanting to see a unified

> field theory of spirituality. lt would sure help a pathetic lower chakra

> hacker like me and would boost my confidence in upper chakra perspectives

)

>

>

> jerry

 

Hello Jerry :~) ~~~~~~~:

 

Antoine

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/12/00 7:33:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

carrea writes:

 

<< Hello Jerry :~) ~~~~~~~:

 

Antoine

>>

 

Hmmmmm ....... Meditating upon this mandala for the past 3 hours has

answered all my questions. My eternal thanks, Antoineji.

 

jerry

[Guest guest]

<GCWein1111

 

> << Hello Jerry :~) ~~~~~~~:

>

> Antoine

> >>

>

> Hmmmmm ....... Meditating upon this mandala for the past 3 hours has

> answered all my questions. My eternal thanks, Antoineji.

>

> jerry

 

Thank you to you Jerry,

 

Antoine