Prayer Beads

[Guest guest]

Bruce,

 

I agree with Krishnamurti. His view is echoed by Dr. R.P. Kaushik

(whose books are unfortunately out of print). Dr. Kaushik said in

his book Light of Exploration that mantras and similar techniques act

like drugs, in that that they inhibit the cerebral functions and

stimulate the lower functions of the brain. Quoting from page 44:

 

"You can only look at the fact, and only when you see the fact do the

brain cells become silent. Unless you see the fact, you live in

areas of projection and fantasy, and continue in the old conditioned

mind. You cannot transcend this conditioned mind through any method,

technique, system, or wishful thinking. The only way is to look at

the fact as it is. Then there is total silence; there is no more

projection possible. But the silence which you create through a

mantra or a technique is an inhibition of certain areas of the brain

and a stimulation of certain other areas. It is a partial silence,

which as a matter of fact, looking from a broader perspective, is

dullness. You can stimulate your thalamic areas and feel that you

have become very senitive--but you have also become dull, because you

have supressed the cerebral functions."

 

Mark

Meditation is not the repetition

of the word, nor the experiencing

ofvision, nor the cultivating of

silence. The bead and the word

do quieten the chattering mind,

but this is a form of self-

hypnosis. You might as well take

a pill. -- J. Krishnamurti

[Guest guest]

Quoting Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar) <hluthar:

 

---- cut ----

> Various techniques and methods and spiritual practices are indication of the

> desire for freedom and are meant to create a certain mental atmosphere in

> which the operation of grace might become possible. Different people are

> attracted to a variety of practices based on their physical and

> psychological makeup.

>

---- cut ----

> The Truth is that Truth is indeed a Pathless Land.

 

---- cut ----

 

It sure seems as if it's pathless.

 

Is it possible that people try method or method after method and simply

get disgusted when they do not get the desired result? Then they may

just give up and simply relax and then the desired result happens

without the person even knowing that it has happened. The unveiling

just occurs. It seems that this can happen quickly or it might take a

long time. Who knows. Idle speculations on the part of this idler.

 

Idle de doo, Idle de da, Idle de la la la.

 

Victor

[Guest guest]

-

Victor Torrico <vtorrico

 

Monday, August 14, 2000 3:04 PM

Prayer Beads

 

 

Quoting Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar) <hluthar:

 

---- cut ----

> Various techniques and methods and spiritual practices are indication of the

> desire for freedom and are meant to create a certain mental atmosphere in

> which the operation of grace might become possible. Different people are

> attracted to a variety of practices based on their physical and

> psychological makeup.

>

---- cut ----

> The Truth is that Truth is indeed a Pathless Land.

 

---- cut ----

 

It sure seems as if it's pathless.

 

Is it possible that people try method or method after method and simply

get disgusted when they do not get the desired result? Then they may

just give up and simply relax and then the desired result happens

without the person even knowing that it has happened. The unveiling

just occurs. It seems that this can happen quickly or it might take a

long time. Who knows. Idle speculations on the part of this idler.

 

Idle de doo, Idle de da, Idle de la la la.

 

Victor

 

You may indeed be onto a major clue here. I mean besides the fact that it

happened

this way for Buddha and countless others..only after giving up..giving up on all

methods and self-effort. Sometimes when people remember what they happened to be

doing before..there is a mistaken notion that this caused "it" to happen...when

it

may be coincidental or acausal to what they were doing. However, there is still

"something" to these antecedents - it seems something creates a "space" in

which

Grace appears...that space is emptiness. So when you mention the giving up..

getting

to the end of one's own rope...the ego has done all it can do and admits

failure, one

relaxes, etc.. there are many variations of how to get there, but I wouldn't

necessarily agree that therefore these practices are worthless. How can one

truly

give up if one has not even begun?

 

Well, this beats speculating on the stock market...heh, heh. What else do you

"suspect" may be true, Victor? Frankly, my take on Krishnamurti is that he is a

thinker and pretty much does not see the value of any devotional or bhakti

methods,

which Greg just recently gave such a good example of similar practices. Are we

talking mind or heart here seems to be the question. Prayer beads as a

philosophy IS

silly.

 

Love,

Gloria

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:08:59 -0400 "Harsha \(Dr. Harsh K. Luthar\)"

<hluthar (AT) bryant (DOT) edu> writes:

Hello Sri Markji and Sri Bruceji. Thanks for your very enlightening

comments. You must have joined recently Mark, and if so welcome. In

fact, let me welcome all the new members.

Mark, I liked very much the points you raised with James post. Perhaps

James will address them. This is a sangha and so there is valuable

opportunity for interaction with people holding diverse views.

As far as Krishnamurti's and Dr. R. P. Kaushik's views on mantras go,

I believe their views to be limited and not applicable to everyone or

even useful for everyone.

I agree, Harshadeva -- and of course

the same can be said for your view

and mine. :-)

Perhaps it is an example of how those who attempt to defy dogma and

preach that "Truth is a Pathless Land" in various ways risk becoming

dogmatic themselves.

Yes, is extraordinarily easy for

anything to become ossified into a

dogma. That risk is inherent in

virtually every utterance that touches

upon this extraordinary matter of the

human psyche and spirit.

Kaushik's view that mantras can act like drugs is indeed correct but

again only partly so and to leave it at that is misleading.

I don't see it as either man's job to

be comprehensive about the subject

Dr. Kaushik is new to me, but it is

well known that Krishnamurti was

fond of chanting in Sanskrit and

that he practiced hatha yoga

rigorously until he became too

frail to do so. It is easy to see both

men's stance as "anti practice," but

I certainly don't receive it that way.

Pranayama and running can also have profound effects on the mind and

body similar to drugs. Still, people find them useful in one way or

another.

Yes, and I see that as precisely the

point of the posted admonitions --

to refrain from seeing ones various

preferred practices or habits as a

means to an end, something that is

work toward a goal or culmination,

but rather as things we do for their

own sake, choices we make along

the route of life itself -- the only

true spiritual path there is!

Even drug experimentation can be a

very profound and useful experience,

if only because a sudden perceptual

shift can induce us to ask important

questions like Sri Ramana's "Who Am

I?", which might not occur to us in the

routinized existence many of us lead in

order to obtain a livelihood or

otherwise discharge our rightful

responsibilities. Congratulations on

your tenure, by the way! :-)

Various techniques and methods and spiritual practices are indication

of the desire for freedom and are meant to create a certain mental

atmosphere in which the operation of grace might become possible.

Again, I see what these two men have

written not an outright repudiation of

intentional practices, but as a fair

warning concerning their limitations

and possible pitfalls. Yes, to embark

upon such a practice is an indication

of a vital, perhaps even indispensible

"desire for freedom." However, such

an impetus entails risk, and many (I

would say the vast majority) of those

who enter the practitioner/seeker

phase of life settle for it. Although I

agree that the intent of practice is to

somehow "prepare the ground," to

promote conditions in which the

movement if grace is more likely,

that intent often does not resemble the

actual effect. This is not to discourage

practice, but rather to encourage in-

the-moment awareness of the actual

effect of *my* practice, and to thereby

notice and/or intuit if/when it is time

alter or discontinue what I am doing,

to move on to whatever my personal

"path" -- life in all its aspects -- is

teaching me *right now*.

Different people are attracted to a variety of practices based on

their physical and psychological makeup.

I couldn't agree more.

I wonder if either Krishnamurti or Kaushik ever seriously practiced

mantra meditation fully to completion.

I know that Krishnamurti was instructed

in a number of traditional practices, but

cannot testify as to "completion." Dr.

Kaushik is new to me and I can't comment

on his experiences.

The Truth is that Truth is indeed a Pathless Land.

V'yimru, omayn!

Love to all

Harsha

Right back atcha, brother!

Bruce

Mark Hovila

[hovila (AT) foxinternet (DOT) net]Monday, August 14, 2000 1:27

PM Subject: Re: Prayer

Beads

Bruce,

I agree with Krishnamurti. His view is echoed by Dr. R.P. Kaushik

(whose books are unfortunately out of print). Dr. Kaushik said in

his book Light of Exploration that mantras and similar techniques act

like drugs, in that that they inhibit the cerebral functions and

stimulate the lower functions of the brain. Quoting from page 44:

"You can only look at the fact, and only when you see the fact do the

brain cells become silent. Unless you see the fact, you live in

areas of projection and fantasy, and continue in the old conditioned

mind. You cannot transcend this conditioned mind through any method,

technique, system, or wishful thinking. The only way is to look at

the fact as it is. Then there is total silence; there is no more

projection possible. But the silence which you create through a

mantra or a technique is an inhibition of certain areas of the brain

and a stimulation of certain other areas. It is a partial silence,

which as a matter of fact, looking from a broader perspective, is

dullness. You can stimulate your thalamic areas and feel that you

have become very senitive--but you have also become dull, because you

have supressed the cerebral functions."

Mark

Meditation is not the repetition

of the word, nor the experiencing

ofvision, nor the cultivating of

silence. The bead and the word

do quieten the chattering mind,

but this is a form of self-

hypnosis. You might as well take

a pill. -- J. Krishnamurti

http://come.to/realizationhttp://www.atman.net/realizationhttp://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htmhttp://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi Harsha-ji, Victor-ji, Bruce-ji and Mark-ji and Gloria-ji,

 

Thanks for your fascinating comments on techniques and spiritual practices.

I actually agree with everyone: Bruce and Mark and Krishnamurti seem to be

saying that techniques will re-arrange certain aspects of the phenomenal

world. E.g., stimulate certain parts of the brain and suppress or allow

other parts to go into quiescence or atrophy. Medicine, drugs, pranayama,

running, and a knock on the head with a hammer do the same kind of thing.

 

I agree with what I think Harsha and Gloria were saying that practice DOES

have its place...

 

The fact that the fruits of spiritual practice has phenomenal descriptions

is to be expected actually. Any technique that uses elements in

phenomenality to operate on other elements in phenomenality will give a

phenomenal result. And that phenomenal result will of course answer to a

certain description. So what is so surprising? The quiet mind has certain

quiet component, and certain active components. It is only surprising if

we believe that a quiet mind is the realization of absolute consciousness,

nirguna Brahman, Self Knowledge, etc. Perhaps some teachers might speak in

a way that allows this understanding, such as "Meditation will take you to

the Ultimate," or "Your mantra will bring you liberation."

 

In some paths, liberation itself is defined according to a certain

description, like a quiet mind. And of course a quiet mind is still a

mind.... In nondualism/advaita/etc., liberation is often described in a

way that has no phenomenal description at all.... One who accepts this

definition of liberation will usually not go for a claim that meditation or

other practices will cause or bring about liberation.

 

I'm probably not saying this very well, kind of busy at work, sorry!

 

Love,

 

--Greg

 

 

Greg Goode (e-mail: goode)

Computer Support

Phone: 4-5723

[Guest guest]

Dear Harsha, Jill, Greg, Bruce, Victor, Gloria:

 

My experience with mantra meditation was that it led to some very

blissful states, but I began to question whether blissful states were

what I really wanted. Why, I wondered, did I have to keep returning

to the mantra? I was much more attracted to openness, and the mantra

seemed to be taking me away from openness. What I really wanted was

to experience Reality (Truth, God, Ultimate Consciousness), and I did

not see how withdrawing my attention from What Is and concentrating on

a sound, even a mental sound, would lead to Reality. I used to be

confused when I would read the part in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras where

he describes the stage of pratyahara, which is usually translated as

something like "withdrawal of the mind from the senses." Then I

surmised that maybe he was referring to the detachment of the

illusory sense of 'I' from the body and senses, rather than a

shutting out of sensory input. The former unquestionably leads to

the experience of Reality, for it is the false belief in 'I' which

blocks the experience of the Real.

 

Maybe the problem I have with mantras (or prayer beads) is really with

the INCORRECT USE of same. In principle I suppose there is no reason

why one could not use these tools with full awareness of one's

surroundings, just as one could with running, pranayama, or all kinds

of activities. I have heard that mantras, yantras, and visualizations

of various kinds can be beneficial for various purposes. But if they

are used to withdraw into a mind-created reality separate from the

world, I fail to see how they can assist in realization of the

Ultimate.

 

But perhaps it not the act of withdrawing attention from the outer

senses that is the real problem. A far greater danger is that of

reinforcing the illusory sense of "I" which attaches itself to the

powerful phenomena which are produced by such techniques. Who or

what it is it that observes these states? Isn't THAT the Reality we

all Seek/Are?

 

I don't know, maybe there is no greater danger of reinforcing the 'I'

in mantra meditation than in anything else we do in life. But I

guess that's what they call "damning with faint praise." I am

much more inspired by the Direct Path than by circuitous methods,

techniques, and rituals, beautiful though they may be.

 

Mark