Guest guest Posted August 23, 2000 Report Share Posted August 23, 2000 This was an email I received about a year ago from Joyce Short a Canadian Dzogchen practitioner. ------ Get comfortable and let mind and body really relax - no need to sit in any strict meditation position - relaxed in a comfy chair is fine. - Locate awareness in space and then put attention on the breath flowing in and out quite naturally. After a few minutes, cease to focus on any particular object and practice "choiceless awareness", simply observing whatever objects arise and pass in Awareness. Notice the following about each object: It is impermanent It has no existence apart from Awareness, Itself. Being a form of Awareness, it is transparent to it. 1. Without fixing attention on anything, just consider: is there awareness of sights? is there awareness of sounds? is there awareness of sensations? Is there awareness of thoughts? is there awareness of feelings? Tastes? Etc. This very Awareness which is right here now, IS that eternal, self luminous Reality that you have been striving to realize all along. Since this Awareness is already here, your striving is unnecessary. 2. Abandon all concepts about experience and simply observe. See how appearances arise in Awareness. Since whatever appears is already present, how can it be avoided? See how appearances pass in Awareness. Since whatever has passed is no longer present, how can it be grasped? See how everything appears in Awareness without the least obstruction. Since nothing obstructs appearances, there are no obstacles to be removed. See how everything passes in Awareness without the least hindrance. Since everything is self-liberating, there is nothing to be set free. Relax into this effortless contemplation of how things actually are. 3. Without making any adjustments, continue to observe: Although you say, "forms arise in Awareness," can you really separate Awareness from its forms? is not Awareness like an ocean and forms its waves? Because Awareness and forms are ultimately inseparable, duality never existed. How then can it be transcended? Although you say, "I am aware of such and such object," can you truly distinguish between yourself and the object? Where does 'self" end and "object" begin? Because subject and object are, in reality, indistinguishable, delusion never originated. How then can it be dispelled? 4. Look! reality is staring you in the face: You say you cannot eliminate your 'self' but there is no self to eliminate. You say you have not attained "Enlightenment" but there is not the slightest thing to attain. you say, "I am ignorant of my true identity." but how can this be? What else is there besides this infinite, eternal, non dual field of Awareness-and -form which is alreadty present, right here and now....and now...and now..... Therefore, surrender all desire for attainment and just be what you are" Awareness, Itself! Do not grasp anything, do not reject anything...be whatever is. "Enlightement" is not a place in which to settle, nor is 'Gnosis' a state that needs to be maintained. All experiences, all feelings, all states-whether mundane or sacred are by their very nature transient and ephemeral. Without maing an attempt to either hold on or push them away, simple remain identified with awareness, Itself and continue to practice effortlessly. By practicing effortless contemplation you will develop the realization that the self is empty of any inherent existence. Thus, while objects continue to appear in Awareness, the delusion that they are being experienced by some'one' will subside. This state of profound selflessness or Awarenesss-without-a-subject is often a prelude to full awakening. What is missing is the complimentary realization that not only does the 'self' lack any inherent existence, but so do objects. Consequently, as long as objects seem to exist in their own right there is no Gnosis. However, if you remain in the state of Awareness-without-a-subject then as Awareness-without-an-object finally dawns, you will realize that the now vanished objects were, in themselves, only imaginary projections of this objectless Awareness. Furthermore, you will realize that your own Awareness-without-a-subject is, in fact, indistinguishable from (and thus identical to) Awareness-without-an-object. In other words, you will directly and simultaneously apprehend not only the True nature of your "self" but the true Nature of all 'objects" and 'worlds' - which is to say, Awareness-without-an-object-and-without-a subject. This is the end of the Path. ------ Victor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2000 Report Share Posted August 23, 2000 Victor, This is wonderful! I'm going to pass it on to a friend who just became interested in Dzogchen. Thanks for posting it!! Love, --Greg At 07:14 PM 8/23/00 -0400, Victor Torrico wrote: >>>> This was an email I received about a year ago from Joyce Short a Canadian Dzogchen practitioner. ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2000 Report Share Posted August 23, 2000 Hi Greg, Glad to hear from you. Hope Joyce's email helps many, many people. Love, Victor Quoting Gregory Goode <goode: > Victor, > > This is wonderful! I'm going to pass it on to a friend who just became > interested in Dzogchen. Thanks for posting it!! > > Love, > > --Greg > > At 07:14 PM 8/23/00 -0400, Victor Torrico wrote: > >>>> > This was an email I received about a year ago from Joyce Short a > Canadian Dzogchen practitioner. > > .... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2000 Report Share Posted August 24, 2000 Dear Victor, Hi again to all my friends at Harshasatsangh. I really enjoyed looking at the photo's of your retreat, trying to fit faces to pre-conceived mental images of the names I have just seen on a computer screen. A formiddible-looking group indeed! Reagrding the posting by Joyce. Of course it is VERY BEAUTIFULLY written and explained. I was just wondering of what actual use such a refined kind of practice as the one described could have for most people. This is really a type of practice based on a very refinely integrated 'understanding' of things. Such a description,offered to most people as a form of practice can be very misleading. Unless one is capable of such subtle realisations which form the basis of the practice suggested, the mind can only make images of the things discussed and try to put these into practice. And without having gone through the many preliminary practices offered by the Dzogchen teachings. leading to a natural unfoldment of the non-state of Rigpa (however faintly at first) self delusion is the only likely outcome, instEAd of self-transcendence. To my undestanding there is SO MUCH preliminary work to be done along this path, and constant talk of the highest aspects of the non-dual teachings could very easiliy remain just on the level of words, intellect and delusion. I myself have often been guilty of talking higher than my actual realization. This is easy, because one very easily mistakes the description for the thing itself. I find the current so-called debate around the Advaita teachings somewhat superficial. The picture has been painted. The Western mind has hooked on to the notions of the non-dualist realizers and came up with a very adequate DESCRIPTION of the non-dual, non-state. But however good at describing the thing, few are those who stand IN and AS the full realisation of that of which they so adequately speak. Non-duality is easy to describe, but a different animal to be realised - where realization means not the mental clarity, but the actual living reality of the truth towards which the words point. What about the practice? What about equally detailed descriptions of practices based on actual living experiences? What about detailed descriptions of the many, many pitfalls along the way. What about the role of things like attention, thought, memory, so-called awareness, so-called consciousness, the psychological being, the I-sense and so on relative to practice and the fact of delusion? What is REAL non-effort? What is the consciousness of which everyone so elequently speak? Are we conscious? Is there such a thing or state of being as consciousness? Do we perceive at all? Are these and many such questions merely to be brushed aside in view of the clear 'understanding' of the description of non-dualism? Are we looking for, and are we indeed even interested, in transformation? Or are we happy just to repeat to one another the not incorrect statements ABOUT non-dualism, and come to rest in the warmth of our mutual, delusiory agreements? Let me know if this line of discussion is of interest to you and other members of this forum. Love to all, MOLLER DE LA ROUVIERE Victor Torrico <vtorrico ; NondualitySalon <NondualitySalon >; ANetofJewels <ANetofJewels > 24 August 2000 01:14 The Only Practice >This was an email I received about a year ago from Joyce Short a >Canadian Dzogchen practitioner. > >------ > >Get comfortable and let mind and body really relax - no need to sit in any >strict meditation position - relaxed in a comfy chair is fine. >- >Locate awareness in space and then put attention on the breath flowing in >and out quite naturally. > >After a few minutes, cease to focus on any particular object and practice >"choiceless awareness", simply observing whatever objects arise and pass in >Awareness. Notice the following about each object: > > It is impermanent > It has no existence apart from Awareness, Itself. > Being a form of Awareness, it is transparent to it. > >1. Without fixing attention on anything, just consider: > > is there awareness of sights? is there awareness of sounds? is there >awareness of sensations? Is there awareness of thoughts? is there >awareness of feelings? Tastes? Etc. > > This very Awareness which is right here now, IS that eternal, self >luminous Reality that you have been striving to realize all along. Since >this Awareness is already here, your striving is unnecessary. > >2. Abandon all concepts about experience and simply observe. > > See how appearances arise in Awareness. Since whatever appears is >already present, how can it be avoided? > > See how appearances pass in Awareness. Since whatever has passed is no >longer present, how can it be grasped? > > See how everything appears in Awareness without the least obstruction. >Since nothing obstructs appearances, there are no obstacles to be removed. > > See how everything passes in Awareness without the least hindrance. >Since everything is self-liberating, there is nothing to be set free. > > Relax into this effortless contemplation of how things actually are. > >3. Without making any adjustments, continue to observe: > > Although you say, "forms arise in Awareness," can you really separate >Awareness from its forms? is not Awareness like an ocean and forms its >waves? > > Because Awareness and forms are ultimately inseparable, duality never >existed. How then can it be transcended? > > Although you say, "I am aware of such and such object," can you truly >distinguish between yourself and the object? Where does 'self" end and >"object" begin? > > Because subject and object are, in reality, indistinguishable, delusion >never originated. How then can it be dispelled? > >4. Look! reality is staring you in the face: > > You say you cannot eliminate your 'self' but there is no self to >eliminate. > > You say you have not attained "Enlightenment" but there is not the >slightest thing to attain. > > you say, "I am ignorant of my true identity." but how can this be? What >else is there besides this infinite, eternal, non dual field of >Awareness-and -form which is alreadty present, right here and now....and >now...and now..... > > Therefore, surrender all desire for attainment and just be what you are" >Awareness, Itself! > > Do not grasp anything, do not reject anything...be whatever is. >"Enlightement" is not a place in which to settle, nor is 'Gnosis' a state >that needs to be maintained. All experiences, all feelings, all >states-whether mundane or sacred are by their very nature transient and >ephemeral. Without maing an attempt to either hold on or push them away, >simple remain identified with awareness, Itself and continue to practice >effortlessly. > > By practicing effortless contemplation you will develop the realization >that the self is empty of any inherent existence. Thus, while objects >continue to appear in Awareness, the delusion that they are being >experienced by some'one' will subside. This state of profound selflessness >or Awarenesss-without-a-subject is often a prelude to full awakening. What >is missing is the complimentary realization that not only does the 'self' >lack any inherent existence, but so do objects. Consequently, as long as >objects seem to exist in their own right there is no Gnosis. However, if >you remain in the state of Awareness-without-a-subject then as >Awareness-without-an-object finally dawns, you will realize that the now >vanished objects were, in themselves, only imaginary projections of this >objectless Awareness. Furthermore, you will realize that your own >Awareness-without-a-subject is, in fact, indistinguishable from (and thus >identical to) Awareness-without-an-object. In other words, you will >directly and simultaneously apprehend not only the True nature of your >"self" but the true Nature of all 'objects" and 'worlds' - which is to say, >Awareness-without-an-object-and-without-a subject. This is the end of the >Path. > >------ > >Victor > > >// > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > >To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2000 Report Share Posted August 24, 2000 Hi Moller, Is this the Moller that has been on this or the advaita list before? If so, welcome back! If not, welcome! I don't know how Dzogchen answers your very good questions, but I bet they have encountered these situations and have ways to deal with them. My impression is that it is a pretty vast path. Maybe Victor can answer, or KKT, if he's around... Love, --Greg At 04:23 PM 8/24/00 +0200, Advaita wrote: >>>> Dear Victor, Hi again to all my friends at Harshasatsangh. I really enjoyed looking at the photo's of your retreat, trying to fit faces to pre-conceived mental images of the names I have just seen on a computer screen. A formiddible-looking group indeed! Reagrding the posting by Joyce. Of course it is VERY BEAUTIFULLY written and explained. I was just wondering of what actual use such a refined kind of practice as the one described could have for most people. This is really a type of practice based on a very refinely integrated 'understanding' of things. Such a description,offered to most people as a form of practice can be very misleading. Unless one is capable of such subtle realisations which form the basis of the practice suggested, the mind can only make images of the things discussed and try to put these into practice. And without having gone through the many preliminary practices offered by the Dzogchen teachings. leading to a natural unfoldment of the non-state of Rigpa (however faintly at first) self delusion is the only likely outcome, instEAd of self-transcendence. To my undestanding there is SO MUCH preliminary work to be done along this path, and constant talk of the highest aspects of the non-dual teachings could very easiliy remain just on the level of words, intellect and delusion. I myself have often been guilty of talking higher than my actual realization. This is easy, because one very easily mistakes the description for the thing itself. I find the current so-called debate around the Advaita teachings somewhat superficial. The picture has been painted. The Western mind has hooked on to the notions of the non-dualist realizers and came up with a very adequate DESCRIPTION of the non-dual, non-state. But however good at describing the thing, few are those who stand IN and AS the full realisation of that of which they so adequately speak. Non-duality is easy to describe, but a different animal to be realised - where realization means not the mental clarity, but the actual living reality of the truth towards which the words point. What about the practice? What about equally detailed descriptions of practices based on actual living experiences? What about detailed descriptions of the many, many pitfalls along the way. What about the role of things like attention, thought, memory, so-called awareness, so-called consciousness, the psychological being, the I-sense and so on relative to practice and the fact of delusion? What is REAL non-effort? What is the consciousness of which everyone so elequently speak? Are we conscious? Is there such a thing or state of being as consciousness? Do we perceive at all? Are these and many such questions merely to be brushed aside in view of the clear 'understanding' of the description of non-dualism? Are we looking for, and are we indeed even interested, in transformation? Or are we happy just to repeat to one another the not incorrect statements ABOUT non-dualism, and come to rest in the warmth of our mutual, delusiory agreements? Let me know if this line of discussion is of interest to you and other members of this forum. Love to all, MOLLER DE LA ROUVIERE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2000 Report Share Posted August 24, 2000 Hi Moller, Thanks for your astute observations and questions. Please allow me some time to reply. Thanks, Victor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2000 Report Share Posted August 25, 2000 Dear Greg, Yes, Greg, this is the non-same old me, ever in a new garb of mixed confusion and enlightenment, clarity and confusion, simplicity and complication - but always with a loving heart and open mind. Perhaps you recall our long conversations about "this non-thing" and so on. We corresponded for a time privately. If you are still available, kindly forward me your E-mail address. One or two things I would very much like to bounce off your clarity. Love, Moller de la Rouviere Gregory Goode <goode ; 24 August 2000 04:26 Re: The Only Practice >Hi Moller, > >Is this the Moller that has been on this or the advaita list before? If >so, welcome back! If not, welcome! > >I don't know how Dzogchen answers your very good questions, but I bet they >have encountered these situations and have ways to deal with them. My >impression is that it is a pretty vast path. Maybe Victor can answer, or >KKT, if he's around... > >Love, > >--Greg > >At 04:23 PM 8/24/00 +0200, Advaita wrote: >>>>> >Dear Victor, > >Hi again to all my friends at Harshasatsangh. > >I really enjoyed looking at the photo's of your retreat, trying to fit faces >to pre-conceived mental images of the names I have just seen on a computer >screen. A formiddible-looking group indeed! > >Reagrding the posting by Joyce. > >Of course it is VERY BEAUTIFULLY written and explained. > >I was just wondering of what actual use such a refined kind of practice as >the one described could have for most people. This is really a type of >practice based on a very refinely integrated 'understanding' of things. > >Such a description,offered to most people as a form of practice can be very >misleading. Unless one is capable of such subtle realisations which form >the basis of the practice suggested, the mind can only make images of the >things discussed and try to put these into practice. And without having >gone through the many preliminary practices offered by the Dzogchen >teachings. leading to a natural unfoldment of the non-state of Rigpa >(however faintly at first) self delusion is the only likely outcome, instEAd >of self-transcendence. > >To my undestanding there is SO MUCH preliminary work to be done along this >path, and constant talk of the highest aspects of the non-dual teachings >could very easiliy remain just on the level of words, intellect and >delusion. I myself have often been guilty of talking higher than my actual >realization. This is easy, because one very easily mistakes the description >for the thing itself. > >I find the current so-called debate around the Advaita teachings somewhat >superficial. The picture has been painted. The Western mind has hooked on >to the notions of the non-dualist realizers and came up with a very adequate >DESCRIPTION of the non-dual, non-state. But however good at describing the >thing, few are those who stand IN and AS the full realisation of that of >which they so adequately speak. Non-duality is easy to describe, but a >different animal to be realised - where realization means not the mental >clarity, but the actual living reality of the truth towards which the words >point. > >What about the practice? What about equally detailed descriptions of >practices based on actual living experiences? What about detailed >descriptions of the many, many pitfalls along the way. What about the role >of things like attention, thought, memory, so-called awareness, so-called >consciousness, the psychological being, the I-sense and so on relative to >practice and the fact of delusion? What is REAL non-effort? What is the >consciousness of which everyone so elequently speak? Are we conscious? Is >there such a thing or state of being as consciousness? Do we perceive at >all? > >Are these and many such questions merely to be brushed aside in view of the >clear 'understanding' of the description of non-dualism? Are we looking >for, and are we indeed even interested, in transformation? Or are we happy >just to repeat to one another the not incorrect statements ABOUT >non-dualism, and come to rest in the warmth of our mutual, delusiory >agreements? > >Let me know if this line of discussion is of interest to you and other >members of this forum. > >Love to all, > >MOLLER DE LA ROUVIERE > > > >// > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > >To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2000 Report Share Posted August 25, 2000 Hi Moller, Yes, welcome! My e-mail address is <goode See you! --Greg At 08:15 AM 8/25/00 +0200, Advaita wrote: >>>> Dear Greg, Yes, Greg, this is the non-same old me, ever in a new garb of mixed confusion and enlightenment, clarity and confusion, simplicity and complication - but always with a loving heart and open mind. Perhaps you recall our long conversations about "this non-thing" and so on. We corresponded for a time privately. If you are still available, kindly forward me your E-mail address. One or two things I would very much like to bounce off your clarity. Love, Moller de la Rouviere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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