words and form also love

September 17, 2000

Mazu,

This came to me early rhis morning in the twilight zone between

sleeping and waking.

Love is a word. It is merely a conceptual entity or thought. You

cannot physically hold love in your hand as you can an egg for

instance. Being a word it is subject to interpretation by each

individual within their thought process. Most people interpret love

as if it were a business contract: You love me and I'll love you.

True love, whatever it may be, is truly out of the thought process. The

lover simply is and does, spontaneously, whatever needs doing. The

lover and beloved are a unity since their is no separation which is always

caused by the thought process. In the silence of no thought love can

flourish. The thought of love is merely maya just an illusion.

Please run the bullshit meter on what I've just said.

Love is the living of life in truth.

Victor

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quoting mazu daoyi <mazudaoyi:

Victor,

Thank you for you reply. "Transmision of Mind" is one of my favorite texts,

thanks for including an except. About a year ago I visited a teacher who

was asked about "no-effort" in regard to awakening. As the teachings of

non-duality have become rather common place rhetoric lately, it was obvious

that the teacher had been asked this question before. This teacher became

rather fierce, and replied "effort.. no effort, doing..non doing, being..non

being, I am sick and tired of these concepts, you need to go beyond these

muddy footprints." It is obvious that you are sincere Victor, and people

often sell their sincerity for "spirituality". Last year I had a very

profound sense that I was going to die some day. I knew this before, but it

did not really hit home until then. It is my oppinion that sincerity

coupled with a sense of impermenance creates the kind of one-pointed urgency

that is needed for profound awakening. People now will tell you, no

birth..no death, but many have not realized it. Or they will hide behind

"Well, who is there to do this or who wants to know?" These concepts become

absolute bullshit to someone who is serious. After I had that sense of

impermanence I wrote a poem to the teacher mentioned above, and one of the

lines read: "Those with time can theorize and shout, friends of

yours(death)just get the fuck out." Before a building is on fire you can

discuss exit routes, but once you know it's on fire you just get out. These

matters are my great passion and I hope I haven't been too harsh. I am glad

to share this passion with you. I look forward to hearing from you soon!

Your friend,

Mazu

Victor Torrico <vtorrico

mazudaoyi

Re: words and form

Fri, 15 Sep 2000 18:18:12 -0400

Mazu,

The question becomes how do you simply drop the words and thinking and

be there in whatever is there? I too have worn and am still wearing

the cloak of these teachings and wish to get out of the damn thing.

I am replying off list because I don't have time to get involved in long

discussions unless they are definitely useful. Perhaps we are kindred

spirits and can help each other. I've read hundreds of spiritual books

and just now am starting to realize that they are of little practical

benefit and that one must somehow come to realization on their own.

Something, I don't know what, said to me --- answer your note.

Anyhow, if you wish to carry on our conversation I will try to be

honest and humble. If you do not want to carry on that's OK too.

Victor

I am finding the following text useful as a pointer:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Start of Text~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Zen Teaching of Huang Po on the Transmission of Mind

- exerpted from translation by John Blofeld (1958)

Regarding this Zen Doctrine of ours, since it was first

transmitted, it has never taught that people should seek for

learning or form concepts. "Studying the Way" is just a figure of

speech. It is a method arousing people's interest in the early

stages of their development. In fact, the Way is not something

which can be studied. Study leads to the retention of concepts

and so the Way is entirely misunderstood. Moreover, the Way is

not something specially existing; it is called the Mahayana Mind

- Mind which is not to be found inside, outside or in the middle.

Truly it is not located anywhere.

The first step is to refrain from knowledge-based concepts. This

implies that if you were to follow the empirical method to the

utmost limit, on reaching that limit you would still be unable to

locate Mind. The Way is spiritual Truth and was originally without

name or title. It was only because people ignorantly sought for

it empirically that the Buddhas appeared and taught them to

eradicate this method of approach. Fearing that nobody would

understand, they selected the name "Way."

You must not allow this name to lead you into forming a mental

concept of a road. So it is said "When the fish is caught we pay

no more attention to the trap." When body and mind achieve

spontaneity, the Way is reached and Mind is understood. A

sramana is so called because he has penetrated to the original

source of all things. The fruit of attaining the sramana stage is

gained by putting an end to all anxiety; it does not come from

book-learning.

If you now set about using your minds to seek Mind, listening

to the teaching of others, and hoping to reach the goal through

mere learning, when will you ever succeed? Some of the

ancients had sharp minds; they no sooner heard the Doctrine

proclaimed than they hastened to discard all learning. So they

were called, "Sages who, abandoning learning, have come to

rest in spontaneity."

In these days people only seek to stuff themselves with

knowledge and deductions, seeking everywhere for

book-knowledge and calling this "Dharma-practice." They do not

know that so much knowledge and deduction have just the

contrary effect of piling up obstacles. Merely acquiring a lot of

knowledge makes you like a child who gives himself indigestion

by gobbling too many curds.

Those who study the Way according to the Three Vehicles are all

like this. All you can call them is people who suffer from

indigestion. When so-called knowledge and deductions are not

digested, they become poisons, for they belong only to the

plane of samsara. In the Absolute, there is nothing at all of this

kind.

So it is said: "In the armory of my sovereign, there is no Sword

of Thusness." All the concepts you have formed in the past

must be discarded and replaced by void. The canonical

teachings of the Three Vehicles are just remedies for temporary

needs. They were taught to meet such needs and so are of

temporary value and differ one from another. If only this could

be understood, there would be no more doubts about it.

Above all it is essential not to select some particular teaching

suited to a certain occasion, and, being impressed by its

forming part of the written canon, regard it as an immutable

concept. Why so? Because in truth there is no unalterable

Dharma which the Tathagata could have preached. People of

our sect would never argue that there could be such a thing. We

just know how to put all mental activity to rest and thus achieve

tranquility. We certainly do not begin by thinking things out and

end up in perplexity.

Question: From all you have just said, Mind is the Buddha; but

it is not clear as to what sort of mind is meant by this "Mind

which is the Buddha." Is the Buddha the ordinary mind or the

Enlightened mind?

Answer: In the teaching of the Three

Vehicles it is clearly explained that the

ordinary and Enlightened minds are

illusions. You don't understand. All this

clinging to the idea of things existing is

to mistake clarity for the truth. How can

such conceptions not be illusory? Being

illusory, they hide Mind from you. If you

would only rid yourselves of the concepts

of ordinary and Enlightened, you would

find that there is no other Buddha than

the Buddha in your own Mind.

When Bodhidharma came from the West, he just pointed out

that the substance of which all people are composed is the

Buddha. You people go on misunderstanding; you hold to

concepts such as "ordinary" and "Enlightened," directing your

thoughts outwards where they gallop about like horses! All this

amounts to beclouding your own minds! So I tell you Mind is the

Buddha. As soon as thought or sensation arises, you fall into

dualism.

Beginningless time and the present moment are the same.

There is no this and no that. To understand this truth is called

complete and unexcelled Enlightenment.

- Excerpted from The Zen Teaching of Huang Po on the

Transmission of Mind

John Blofeld (1958)

When I first started practice my teacher had me stop reading

books on Buddhism. While it does serve to arouse the interest,

if we're not careful, we get caught by the concepts and

distracted by a kind of head knowledge which is never

satisfactory in the deepest sense. We easily confuse

understanding the words and ideas with true understanding, and

we never go far enough in our own questioning. More

importantly we wind up collecting understandings without any

practical experience of the teaching which leads to a superficial

kind of practice.

So, how do we "understand" and then "practice" what Huang Po

is telling us in the above? Here's a passage that might shed

some light...

Buddhist trainees should first determine whether or not their

practice is headed toward the Way. Shakyamuni, who was able

to harmonize and control his body, speech, and mind, sat

beneath a bo tree doing zazen. To be headed toward the Way

is to know its appearance and how far it extends. The Way lies

under the foot of every person. When you become one with the

Way you find that it is right where you are, thus realizing perfect

enlightenment. If, however, you take pride in your

enlightenment, even though it be very deep, it will be no more

than partial enlightenment.

To study the Way is to try to become one with it - to forget even

a trace of enlightenment. Those who would practice the Way

should first of all believe in it. Those who believe in the Way

should believe that they have been in the Way from the very

beginning, subject to neither delusion, illusive thoughts, and

confused ideas nor increase, decrease, and mistaken

understanding. Engendering belief like this, clarify the Way and

practice it accordingly - this is the essence of studying the Way.

The second method of Buddhist training is to cut off the

function of discriminating consciousness and turn away from the

road of intellectual understanding. This is the manner in which

novices should be guided. Thereafter they will be able to let

body and mind fall away, freeing themselves from the dualistic

ideas of delusion and enlightenment.

If only you believe that you are truly in the Way, you will

naturally be able to understand how it functions, as well as the

true meaning of delusion and enlightenment.

- Taken from Zen Master Dogen; An Introduction with Selected

Writings

by Yuho Yokoi (1976)

May all be Auspicious,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~End of Text~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quoting mazudaoyi <mazudaoyi:

The scriptures and the masters have been saying for hundreds of years

that one should be free of form and words. My apriciation for this

fact has grown along with me. It has been my experience both in my

own life and in speaking with others that there is far too much

investment put on words. Not that words are not needed, but rather

that words often create conceptual cages. It is particually tempting

to do so when the teaching is one of a non-dual nature. Moreover, it

is far too easy to "hide" behind a conceptual understanding, which in

many cases makes talking to a person like talking to a wall. I

discovered that I had taken non-dual teachings of "no-effort, non-

doing, just being etc.", and worn it like a very heavy cloke around

my neck. The truth is beyond these concepts. I look forward to

communicating to anyone who is really willing to lay it down, and is

willing as I am to always be humbled.

Mazu

~

September 17, 2000

I like this very much, Victor. The other day I read some words of Scott

Morrison who said that if you enter the place where you realize you know

nothing about yourself or the universe, you will experience a kind of intense

Intimacy which will soon reveal itself to be you and all that is. For some

reason the word Intimacy clicked with me in a bodily way. I most often

"feel" truth viscerally rather than know it conceptually. And I'm not even

sure the "feeling" has to do entirely with the body. The love you describe

seems to me on the move -- like a giant body dancing of which we are a part.

Holly

September 17, 2000

In a message dated 09/17/2000 10:26:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

Hbarrett47 writes:

<< For some

reason the word Intimacy clicked with me in a bodily way. I most often

"feel" truth viscerally rather than know it conceptually. And I'm not even

sure the "feeling" has to do entirely with the body. The love you describe

seems to me on the move -- like a giant body dancing of which we are a part.

Holly

>>

This is Beautiful, Holly,

Thank you,

Annette

September 17, 2000

Dear Holly,

That's a very unique experience you have. Thanks for sharing this. My

experience is kind of a crisp bright awareness that exists in silence.

Action occurs spontaneously out of that silence. Of course when I am

not in the silence the old mind machine keeps cranking out the

thoughts which hopefully can merely be observed without getting caught

up in them. Still get caught up though.

Victor

Quoting Hbarrett47 <Hbarrett47: