[NondualitySalon] RE: [Advaita-Ashram] Advaitist's illusion

[Guest guest]

Hi Harsha,

 

That is very good. I think the point that Moller is bringing out is that

the advaita teachings can be a trap when there are no practices done at

all. Then the only thing the person is given to utilize is a thin

intellectual idea. You mention the dual teachings of yoga and advaita. If

the yoga teachings follow Patanjali's sutras, this is very helpful, as

there is lots of encouragement for devotion to one's chosen diety, and the

ethical and restraint practices of the yamas and niyamas. Advaita as a

conceptual background can be a marvelous assist to this process and

practices of yoga!

 

Love,

 

--Greg

 

At 12:23 PM 10/2/00 -0400, Harsha \(Dr. Harsh K. Luthar\) wrote:

>

>Gregory Goode [goode]

>

>Hi Moller-ji,

>

>I agree with you in general, and salute your wake-up call to not hide out

>in the intellectual advaita shuffle! The traditions that teach advaita

>or nondualism (Advaita Vedanta, Kabbala, Madhyamika, Sufism, etc.) as part

>of an overall spiritual approach to life, they have this kind of attitude

>towards the non-dual teaching: the people for whom the non-dual teachings

>are usually helpful are ironically, the ones who have practised long and

>sincerely. That is, they aren't the best teaching for every stage of life.

> E.g., coming off the street fresh from college and one's first corporate

>job, then into this teaching, would cause the person to bypass lots of

>helpful stuff that would eventually help this non-practicing teaching take

>root. Helpful stuff which might include therapy, devotional, ethical and

>meditative practices.

>

>So, is what you are saying that the advaita view is more of a trap when

>adopted too soon?? Sounds good to me!

>

>Namaste,

>

>--Greg

>

>Thanks Greg-Ji. It should be pointed out that in many traditions, Yoga and

>Advaita Vedanta are taught simultaneously. Advaita awareness can be

>conceptualized as a potent practice adopted along with and in the context of

>other practices such as meditation, pranayama, etc. For most people, an

>integrative approach focusing on the needs of the body and mind is helpful.

>As I have said before, there is no conflict between the nondual and the dual

>approach. One can only engage in those spiritual practices towards which one

>is already inclined. So in a sense the issue is not as important as it might

>seem at first.

>

>Love to all

>Harsha

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

 

Gregory Goode [goode]

 

Hi Harsha,

 

That is very good. I think the point that Moller is bringing out is that

the advaita teachings can be a trap when there are no practices done at

all. Then the only thing the person is given to utilize is a thin

intellectual idea. You mention the dual teachings of yoga and advaita. If

the yoga teachings follow Patanjali's sutras, this is very helpful, as

there is lots of encouragement for devotion to one's chosen diety, and the

ethical and restraint practices of the yamas and niyamas. Advaita as a

conceptual background can be a marvelous assist to this process and

practices of yoga!

 

Love,

 

--Greg

 

Yes, it is a good point Greg. Moller's comments that Advaita teachings can

be trap if there are no spiritual practices accompanied seems valid. But it

is not entirely clear who the advaita teachings are a trap for. Whoever is

trapped in it, what else would they be doing if they were not trapped in it.

The heart of the matter, in my view, are the pre-existing tendencies that

people have, to follow one path or another or be "trapped" in intellectual

teachings or whatever.

 

Love

Harsha

[Guest guest]

Drat!!! (I was hoping for an easy out...) Oh well, back to the piano.

Love, Mark

Gregory Goode wrote:

Hi Harsha,

That is very good. I think the point that Moller is bringing

out is that

the advaita teachings can be a trap when there are no practices

done at

all. Then the only thing the person is given to utilize is

a thin

intellectual idea. You mention the dual teachings of yoga

and advaita. If

the yoga teachings follow Patanjali's sutras, this is very helpful,

as

there is lots of encouragement for devotion to one's chosen diety,

and the

ethical and restraint practices of the yamas and niyamas.

Advaita as a

conceptual background can be a marvelous assist to this process

and

practices of yoga!

Love,

--Greg

At 12:23 PM 10/2/00 -0400, Harsha \(Dr. Harsh K. Luthar\) wrote:

>

>Gregory Goode [goode (AT) dpw (DOT) com]

>

>Hi Moller-ji,

>

>I agree with you in general, and salute your wake-up call to not

hide out

>in the intellectual advaita shuffle! The traditions

that teach advaita

>or nondualism (Advaita Vedanta, Kabbala, Madhyamika, Sufism, etc.)

as part

>of an overall spiritual approach to life, they have this kind

of attitude

>towards the non-dual teaching: the people for whom the non-dual

teachings

>are usually helpful are ironically, the ones who have practised

long and

>sincerely. That is, they aren't the best teaching for every

stage of life.

> E.g., coming off the street fresh from college and one's first

corporate

>job, then into this teaching, would cause the person to bypass

lots of

>helpful stuff that would eventually help this non-practicing teaching

take

>root. Helpful stuff which might include therapy, devotional,

ethical and

>meditative practices.

>

>So, is what you are saying that the advaita view is more of a

trap when

>adopted too soon?? Sounds good to me!

>

>Namaste,

>

>--Greg

>

>Thanks Greg-Ji. It should be pointed out that in many traditions,

Yoga and

>Advaita Vedanta are taught simultaneously. Advaita awareness can

be

>conceptualized as a potent practice adopted along with and in

the context of

>other practices such as meditation, pranayama, etc. For most people,

an

>integrative approach focusing on the needs of the body and mind

is helpful.

>As I have said before, there is no conflict between the nondual

and the dual

>approach. One can only engage in those spiritual practices towards

which one

>is already inclined. So in a sense the issue is not as important

as it might

>seem at first.

>

>Love to all

>Harsha

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

//

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home

is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar

on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription

between digest and normal mode.

[Guest guest]

It's funny how hard it is to talk of practicalities about this work. A

metaphor which may or may not be helpful is that of being a fish who is

in the process of being reeled in by God the fisherman. I feel as

though I have been thoroughly hooked and that the process of awakening

is happening whether I help it along or not, but I can really hurt

myself by struggling against it. The work of yoga and advaite might be

those swimming motions that propel me in the direction of the tension in

the fishing line, and those mental activities that stir up my mind as

trying to swim against the pull. So I certainly have pre-existing

tendencies (to swim away from the pull), but I can lower the pain in my

lip by practicing and thereby strengthening tendencies that move me

towards clarity.

 

I dunno if this is clear or helpful. I just know that I am by

pre-existing tendencies disposed towards being hairy, but am finding

that allowing these pre-existing tendencies to control my behavior just

causes further suffering.

 

humbly metaphoring along the path,

Mark

 

"Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" wrote:

>

> Gregory Goode [goode]

>

> Hi Harsha,

>

> That is very good. I think the point that Moller is bringing out is

> that

> the advaita teachings can be a trap when there are no practices done

> at

> all. Then the only thing the person is given to utilize is a thin

> intellectual idea. You mention the dual teachings of yoga and

> advaita. If

> the yoga teachings follow Patanjali's sutras, this is very helpful, as

>

> there is lots of encouragement for devotion to one's chosen diety, and

> the

> ethical and restraint practices of the yamas and niyamas. Advaita as

> a

> conceptual background can be a marvelous assist to this process and

> practices of yoga!

>

> Love,

>

> --Greg

>

> Yes, it is a good point Greg. Moller's comments that Advaita teachings

> can

> be trap if there are no spiritual practices accompanied seems valid.

> But it

> is not entirely clear who the advaita teachings are a trap for.

> Whoever is

> trapped in it, what else would they be doing if they were not trapped

> in it.

> The heart of the matter, in my view, are the pre-existing tendencies

> that

> people have, to follow one path or another or be "trapped" in

> intellectual

> teachings or whatever.

>

> Love

> Harsha

>

>

> //

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

> perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

> subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

> different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the

> nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

> Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart

> to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the

> Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It

> Self. Welcome all to a.

>

> To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

> www., and select the User Center link

> from the menu bar

> on the left. This menu will also let you change

> your subscription

> between digest and normal mode.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jessica,

 

Packing... Where are you going?

 

At 11:44 AM 10/2/00 -0700, Jessica wrote:

>>>>

Hello Harsha and all,

 

Just a comment in light of all that Moller 'appears' to have stirred. Not

only on this egroup, but others as well. ; )

 

When Awareness dawns, there is a "seeing" a realization that all the doing

(seemingly having been done by the individual) has actually been done by the

puppeteer called Karma. But with the dawning of Awareness, one awakens to:

the body still 'appears' to be attached to the puppet strings; the body has

it's karma so to speak, but the way off of the strings ( to be awake while

the body is still going through it's karma) is to turn within and not react

to what is arising, whether it's going through Kundalini experiences,

getting into a car accident, getting fired, getting married, having

children, getting old, sick, dying etc, etc, etc. All of these things are

done by the puppeteer; Maya distracting from abiding in the Self so the show

can go on. It's all a matter of identification. There are no individual

doers.

 

(Just had to take a break from packing!)

<<<<

>>>>

[Guest guest]

Hello Harsha and all,

 

Just a comment in light of all that Moller 'appears' to have stirred. Not

only on this egroup, but others as well. ; )

 

When Awareness dawns, there is a "seeing" a realization that all the doing

(seemingly having been done by the individual) has actually been done by the

puppeteer called Karma. But with the dawning of Awareness, one awakens to:

the body still 'appears' to be attached to the puppet strings; the body has

it's karma so to speak, but the way off of the strings ( to be awake while

the body is still going through it's karma) is to turn within and not react

to what is arising, whether it's going through Kundalini experiences,

getting into a car accident, getting fired, getting married, having

children, getting old, sick, dying etc, etc, etc. All of these things are

done by the puppeteer; Maya distracting from abiding in the Self so the show

can go on. It's all a matter of identification. There are no individual

doers.

 

(Just had to take a break from packing!)

 

Love to all,

~jessica

 

 

-

"Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar

; <NondualitySalon >

Monday, October 02, 2000 10:07 AM

RE: [NondualitySalon] RE: Re: [Advaita-Ashram]

Advaitist's illusion

 

>

> Gregory Goode [goode]

>

> Hi Harsha,

>

> That is very good. I think the point that Moller is bringing out is that

> the advaita teachings can be a trap when there are no practices done at

> all. Then the only thing the person is given to utilize is a thin

> intellectual idea. You mention the dual teachings of yoga and advaita.

If

> the yoga teachings follow Patanjali's sutras, this is very helpful, as

> there is lots of encouragement for devotion to one's chosen diety, and the

> ethical and restraint practices of the yamas and niyamas. Advaita as a

> conceptual background can be a marvelous assist to this process and

> practices of yoga!

>

> Love,

>

> --Greg

>

> Yes, it is a good point Greg. Moller's comments that Advaita teachings can

> be trap if there are no spiritual practices accompanied seems valid. But

it

> is not entirely clear who the advaita teachings are a trap for. Whoever is

> trapped in it, what else would they be doing if they were not trapped in

it.

> The heart of the matter, in my view, are the pre-existing tendencies that

> people have, to follow one path or another or be "trapped" in intellectual

> teachings or whatever.

>

> Love

> Harsha

>

>

>

> //

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

>

> To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

> www., and select the User Center link from

the menu bar

> on the left. This menu will also let you change your

subscription

> between digest and normal mode.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

and a P.S.

 

So whatever one goes through, whether aware or not, just know it's the old

puppeteer's handiwork until......you know. ; )

 

 

Me again,

 

*Love*

[Guest guest]

Dear Mark,

 

This is VERY beautifully put. Thank you for that.

 

Love,

 

Moller

 

 

It's funny how hard it is to talk of practicalities about this work.

A

metaphor which may or may not be helpful is that of being a fish who

is

in the process of being reeled in by God the fisherman. I feel as

though I have been thoroughly hooked and that the process of awakening

is happening whether I help it along or not, but I can really hurt

myself by struggling against it. The work of yoga and advaite might

be

those swimming motions that propel me in the direction of the tension

in

the fishing line, and those mental activities that stir up my mind as

trying to swim against the pull. So I certainly have pre-existing

tendencies (to swim away from the pull), but I can lower the pain in

my

lip by practicing and thereby strengthening tendencies that move me

towards clarity.

 

I dunno if this is clear or helpful. I just know that I am by

pre-existing tendencies disposed towards being hairy, but am finding

that allowing these pre-existing tendencies to control my behavior

just

causes further suffering.

 

humbly metaphoring along the path,

Mark