Questioning 'I am not the feelings/thought..I am That'

[Guest guest]

Hello

 

I am not an expert in Advaita, though I have read some 'teachings'

and have seen a few teachers.

 

I would like to mention a friend's many years interest in it.

He's studied it much.

He has been organizing satsangs with various teachers.

 

I've seen him recently, at a satsang. I went out for a cup of tea and

he followed me, and came to my table. I could sense he needed to talk.

He also seemed to be somewhat different. His 'devotee' grin was not

there as ussual. However he had a sober presence about him.

 

Essentially, he was saying that the 'I am not the

body/feelings/thought..I am That' has become a boring mantra for him.

He has seen that this 'formula' has created in him a subtle

distance /division between his I and the feelings/thought. And

therefore illusory peace and actual conflict.

 

Now he saw that he IS feelings/thought. That there Is Nothing else.

He got interested in J. Krishnamurti's teaching, which, he felt,

starts with the non-ideational nakedness of the daily what-is-as-it-

is. He felt a great relief.

 

I do not know whether his findings are actually in contradiction to

Advaita. Perhaps anyone of us could fiddle with his words in a

comparative philosophy-manner and prove that there is no

contradiction.

 

However, it seems to me, that he does have a point.

That _Any_ statement done via-positiva, can affect/stimulate the

minds attitudes subtly and give it a fragmentary/exclusive direction.

(and my listening to dialogues with some Advaita teachers, it seems

to be so that, Questioning/Inquiring into its basic statements, are

not encouraged)

 

So, perhaps a 'Not-knowing' moment by moment rooted in

honesty/sobriety, might be a very healthy base to inquiry.

(One is uncompromisingly/'ruthlessly' interested in Truth, and not in

aligning oneself to traditional truths, because they promise 'It'.)

This is what it seems to me anyhow, to be so.

 

Comments/feedback welcome.

jb.

[Guest guest]

 

J B [JB789]

 

So, perhaps a 'Not-knowing' moment by moment rooted in

honesty/sobriety, might be a very healthy base to inquiry.

(One is uncompromisingly/'ruthlessly' interested in Truth, and not in

aligning oneself to traditional truths, because they promise 'It'.)

This is what it seems to me anyhow, to be so.

 

Comments/feedback welcome.

jb.

 

Thanks JB for your sharing here. I would agree that bringing constant

awareness and attention to the "Not-Knowing" of the moment has incredible

potency. The basic experiential truth at the bottom of our existence, it

seems to me, is that we do not where we are coming from, we do not know who

we are, and we do not know where we are going. The starkness of this reality

makes techniques and methods and traditional teachings very attractive, and

so they certainly have a place. Yet, there will always be people who are at

a place where the naked uncompromising gaze at one's own "Not-Knowing" and

the fragility of existence itself becomes seductive. They say that when you

look at the abyss, the abyss looks at you. Perhaps it is so because You are

the Abyss! Again, thanks for your comments JB. I like your no nonsense

approach and perspective.

 

Love to all

Harsha

[Guest guest]

-

J B <JB789

 

Tuesday, October 03, 2000 10:43 AM

Questioning 'I am not the feelings/thought..I am That'

 

 

Hello

 

I am not an expert in Advaita, though I have read some 'teachings'

and have seen a few teachers.

 

I would like to mention a friend's many years interest in it.

He's studied it much.

He has been organizing satsangs with various teachers.

 

I've seen him recently, at a satsang. I went out for a cup of tea and

he followed me, and came to my table. I could sense he needed to talk.

He also seemed to be somewhat different. His 'devotee' grin was not

there as ussual. However he had a sober presence about him.

 

Essentially, he was saying that the 'I am not the

body/feelings/thought..I am That' has become a boring mantra for him.

He has seen that this 'formula' has created in him a subtle

distance /division between his I and the feelings/thought. And

therefore illusory peace and actual conflict.

 

Now he saw that he IS feelings/thought. That there Is Nothing else.

He got interested in J. Krishnamurti's teaching, which, he felt,

starts with the non-ideational nakedness of the daily what-is-as-it-

is. He felt a great relief.

 

I do not know whether his findings are actually in contradiction to

Advaita. Perhaps anyone of us could fiddle with his words in a

comparative philosophy-manner and prove that there is no

contradiction.

 

However, it seems to me, that he does have a point.

That _Any_ statement done via-positiva, can affect/stimulate the

minds attitudes subtly and give it a fragmentary/exclusive direction.

(and my listening to dialogues with some Advaita teachers, it seems

to be so that, Questioning/Inquiring into its basic statements, are

not encouraged)

 

So, perhaps a 'Not-knowing' moment by moment rooted in

honesty/sobriety, might be a very healthy base to inquiry.

(One is uncompromisingly/'ruthlessly' interested in Truth, and not in

aligning oneself to traditional truths, because they promise 'It'.)

This is what it seems to me anyhow, to be so.

 

Comments/feedback welcome.

jb.

 

-------------------------

 

Hello JB and Welcome!

 

This is what I hear you saying/asking about your friend.

 

Either 1. The advaita ideas he studied may be "true" - but he misunderstood and

used them the wrong way previously.

 

And 2. The advaita ideas may be "true" or not, but using any belief or concept

to filter direct awareness was the "mistake" he has stopped making. Dropping all

beliefs in favor of "Not-knowing" is the way to go.

 

JB, your own insights here are very astute. Any beliefs become irrelevant at the

point they are a barrier and are preferred to opening into the present moment

awareness. It actually sounds more like your friend has disidentified with his

mind via dropping formulaic concepts, (like "I am That" as a mantra, is just a

concept, right?) Its less a matter of what he is believing, and more how he is

being.."more honest, authentic, less inner conflict, relief"..as you describe.

It certainly seems a step in the right direction...towards reality.

 

Thanks for raising such an important issue.

 

Gloria

[Guest guest]

Dear JB,

 

Yes, this is very beautifully put. Makes a lot of sense .

 

Love,

 

Moller

 

 

Gloria Lee <glee

03 October 2000 05:57

Re: Questioning 'I am not the

feelings/thought..I am That'

 

 

 

-

J B <JB789

 

Tuesday, October 03, 2000 10:43 AM

Questioning 'I am not the

feelings/thought..I am That'

 

 

Hello

 

I am not an expert in Advaita, though I have read some 'teachings'

and have seen a few teachers.

 

I would like to mention a friend's many years interest in it.

He's studied it much.

He has been organizing satsangs with various teachers.

 

I've seen him recently, at a satsang. I went out for a cup of tea and

he followed me, and came to my table. I could sense he needed to talk.

He also seemed to be somewhat different. His 'devotee' grin was not

there as ussual. However he had a sober presence about him.

 

Essentially, he was saying that the 'I am not the

body/feelings/thought..I am That' has become a boring mantra for him.

He has seen that this 'formula' has created in him a subtle

distance /division between his I and the feelings/thought. And

therefore illusory peace and actual conflict.

 

Now he saw that he IS feelings/thought. That there Is Nothing else.

He got interested in J. Krishnamurti's teaching, which, he felt,

starts with the non-ideational nakedness of the daily what-is-as-it-

is. He felt a great relief.

 

I do not know whether his findings are actually in contradiction to

Advaita. Perhaps anyone of us could fiddle with his words in a

comparative philosophy-manner and prove that there is no

contradiction.

 

However, it seems to me, that he does have a point.

That _Any_ statement done via-positiva, can affect/stimulate the

minds attitudes subtly and give it a fragmentary/exclusive direction.

(and my listening to dialogues with some Advaita teachers, it seems

to be so that, Questioning/Inquiring into its basic statements, are

not encouraged)

 

So, perhaps a 'Not-knowing' moment by moment rooted in

honesty/sobriety, might be a very healthy base to inquiry.

(One is uncompromisingly/'ruthlessly' interested in Truth, and not in

aligning oneself to traditional truths, because they promise 'It'.)

This is what it seems to me anyhow, to be so.

 

Comments/feedback welcome.

jb.

 

-------------------------

 

Hello JB and Welcome!

 

This is what I hear you saying/asking about your friend.

 

Either 1. The advaita ideas he studied may be "true" - but he

misunderstood and

used them the wrong way previously.

 

And 2. The advaita ideas may be "true" or not, but using any belief

or concept

to filter direct awareness was the "mistake" he has stopped making.

Dropping all

beliefs in favor of "Not-knowing" is the way to go.

 

JB, your own insights here are very astute. Any beliefs become

irrelevant at the

point they are a barrier and are preferred to opening into the present

moment

awareness. It actually sounds more like your friend has disidentified

with his

mind via dropping formulaic concepts, (like "I am That" as a mantra,

is just a

concept, right?) Its less a matter of what he is believing, and more

how he is

being.."more honest, authentic, less inner conflict, relief"..as you

describe.

It certainly seems a step in the right direction...towards reality.

 

Thanks for raising such an important issue.

 

Gloria

 

 

//

 

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the

nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart

to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the

Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It

Self. Welcome all to a.

 

To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

www., and select the User Center link

from the menu bar

on the left. This menu will also let you change

your subscription

between digest and normal mode.

[Guest guest]

Hi JB and Moller,

 

Yes, this is good sense. The via positiva can affect the mind, giving it

ever-so-subtle directions in which to incline itself - people worry that

some of these directions might go to the wrong place. The via negativa can

be scary, since its purpose is to remove anyplace to stand. Most people

use a combination of both positiva and negativa over time.

 

There are people on the list here who know much more about Krishnamurti

than I do - but my impression is that he is more helpful on the negativa

side than the positiva side.

 

And as for advaita/satsang teachers not being open to questioning the very

presumptions of advaita - often the teachers themselves have not looked or

experienced that deeply these things. They'll tell you to "kill the mind"

or "get quiet" or "drop the question." But on the other hand, a

penetrating answer from a good teacher on a deep and sincere question can

actually accomplish the implosion of the question and the end of the

questioning impulse. This is *permanently* effective for that seeker,

whereas merely being told, "drop the question" can turn into an ongoing

polishing-like, repetitive practice.

 

Love,

 

--Greg

 

At 06:40 PM 10/3/00 +0200, Advaita wrote:

>>>>

Dear JB,

 

Yes, this is very beautifully put. Makes a lot of sense .

 

Love,

 

Moller

 

 

Gloria Lee <glee

03 October 2000 05:57

Re: Questioning 'I am not the

feelings/thought..I am That'

 

 

 

-

J B <JB789

 

Tuesday, October 03, 2000 10:43 AM

Questioning 'I am not the

feelings/thought..I am That'

 

 

Hello

 

I am not an expert in Advaita, though I have read some 'teachings'

and have seen a few teachers.

 

I would like to mention a friend's many years interest in it.

He's studied it much.

He has been organizing satsangs with various teachers.

 

I've seen him recently, at a satsang. I went out for a cup of tea and

he followed me, and came to my table. I could sense he needed to talk.

He also seemed to be somewhat different. His 'devotee' grin was not

there as ussual. However he had a sober presence about him.

 

Essentially, he was saying that the 'I am not the

body/feelings/thought..I am That' has become a boring mantra for him.

He has seen that this 'formula' has created in him a subtle

distance /division between his I and the feelings/thought. And

therefore illusory peace and actual conflict.

 

Now he saw that he IS feelings/thought. That there Is Nothing else.

He got interested in J. Krishnamurti's teaching, which, he felt,

starts with the non-ideational nakedness of the daily what-is-as-it-

is. He felt a great relief.

 

I do not know whether his findings are actually in contradiction to

Advaita. Perhaps anyone of us could fiddle with his words in a

comparative philosophy-manner and prove that there is no

contradiction.

 

However, it seems to me, that he does have a point.

That _Any_ statement done via-positiva, can affect/stimulate the

minds attitudes subtly and give it a fragmentary/exclusive direction.

(and my listening to dialogues with some Advaita teachers, it seems

to be so that, Questioning/Inquiring into its basic statements, are

not encouraged)

 

So, perhaps a 'Not-knowing' moment by moment rooted in

honesty/sobriety, might be a very healthy base to inquiry.

(One is uncompromisingly/'ruthlessly' interested in Truth, and not in

aligning oneself to traditional truths, because they promise 'It'.)

This is what it seems to me anyhow, to be so.

 

Comments/feedback welcome.

jb.

 

-------------------------

 

Hello JB and Welcome!

 

This is what I hear you saying/asking about your friend.

 

Either 1. The advaita ideas he studied may be "true" - but he

misunderstood and

used them the wrong way previously.

 

And 2. The advaita ideas may be "true" or not, but using any belief

or concept

to filter direct awareness was the "mistake" he has stopped making.

Dropping all

beliefs in favor of "Not-knowing" is the way to go.

 

JB, your own insights here are very astute. Any beliefs become

irrelevant at the

point they are a barrier and are preferred to opening into the present

moment

awareness. It actually sounds more like your friend has disidentified

with his

mind via dropping formulaic concepts, (like "I am That" as a mantra,

is just a

concept, right?) Its less a matter of what he is believing, and more

how he is

being.."more honest, authentic, less inner conflict, relief"..as you

describe.

It certainly seems a step in the right direction...towards reality.

 

Thanks for raising such an important issue.

 

Gloria

 

 

<//>/subs

cribe/

 

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the

nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart

to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the

Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It

Self. Welcome all to a.

 

To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

www., and select the User Center link

from the menu bar

on the left. This menu will also let you change

your subscription

between digest and normal mode.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<//>/subs

cribe/

 

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is

Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality

of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

a.

 

To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

www., and select the User Center link from

the menu bar

on the left. This menu will also let you change your

subscription

between digest and normal mode.

 

 

 

 

<<<<

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/05/2000 7:00:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

JB789 writes:

 

<<

Well, I have just mentioned this as an example of authority and 'us

vs, them'.

 

Best wishes

jb. >>

 

JB, a suggestion: leave the list, sounds like more angst than it's worth... ?

 

L*L*L

~ bo ~

[Guest guest]

Hi Gregory

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

You pointed to the authoritative instructions of some teachers: 'do

this, don't do that'.

There is a discussion-forum (I can evt. mention the name if of

interest) where the moderator is also the guide/teacher, He seems to

be inspired by Ramana, though he says : no path, here is the end of

the search.

 

I have written a couple of mails, presenting some factual life

situations and problems/suffering. For the purpose of

feedback/dialogue/inquiry. I never got any direct answer. He, and

also some of the members, give rather cryptic, Zen-ish, koanic,

sarcastic-comic answers.

One even told me to 'shut the f... up'.. lots of arrogance and

sarcasm. Perhaps they think that they practice some form of

Tibetan 'crazy wisdom'. But to me, it is evasion, of the daily what-

is, and indulgence in paradoxical verbiage and other trivilaities. I

mentioned that to them, and the above was one of the replies.

She accused me for disturbing their peace.

The teacher, has not commented dierctly on my mail's contents either.

He essentially accused me for coming to make some 'statement', and

that I should cut out the bull,.. and asked me 'What do you want ?'.

 

I felt that this might be a kind of catch-22. I said to him that if i

reply 'I want...' he might reply : illusion, your I is the problem.

If I say : I do not want anything, he might say 'Lie'. So he told me

that I have one more chance, and asked me again the same question.

 

I noticed that in another mail he wrote: 'many people who come here

do not really want to Realize the unknown'. I thought, how can I want

that, .. find something unknown.. but I decided to use his language.

SoI replied to his question, saying: 'I want to Realize the unknown;

the neither htis nor that'. Well, my prediction seemed to be right.

He said that, that 'want' is false..

 

He regards everything as bull,.. only the question 'who am i' has

value.

In a reply to a memeber, who was fed up with the 'who am i' mantra, I

suggested whether asking 'Where am I' would not be just as valid.

The memeber said that that resonates better for him.

The teacher, immediately addressed to us both, and accuses us of

screwing up the whole thing..that how can there be a 'where' when

there is no 'I' ?

And underlined that the Only q. is 'who am I'.

He also picked on some of my sentences that start with 'I'. Said

That's the problem..

And yet he certainly uses 'I' often,.. like in 'I will give you last

chance.. I will not tolerate more mind-cr..'.

He supports some old memebers in their expressing arrogance, insults

and 4 letter words. He told me that they are somehow qualified

to 'use the demon', but not me.(?)

 

Well, sorry about all these details, but I wonder how it can be that

90% of the mails there, are written in the above mentioned style, or

lots of buddy-buddy sentimentalities, supporing each-other/taking

sides when disturbed by questioning.(many are dropouts from

the 'Course in Miracles' forum)

And yet the teacher mainatains that one can say anything one wants,

and one will never be banned (in spite of the Zen-sticks smacking all

over the place,.. also between the members).

it looks more like an old-days therapy-session of reciprocal 'ar..

kicking'.. only here with the 'holy' intention to knock the ego out.

Is Life, not doing a good enough job of that ?.. does it need the

help of all these self-appointed mini-gurus ?

 

How can there be any joint friendly inquiry, in the midst of all

those threats and 'plates' flying over or at one's head ?

 

Well, I have just mentioned this as an example of authority and 'us

vs, them'.

 

Best wishes

jb.

 

, Gregory Goode <goode@D...> wrote:

> Hi JB and Moller,

>

> Yes, this is good sense. The via positiva can affect the mind,

giving it

> ever-so-subtle directions in which to incline itself - people worry

that

> some of these directions might go to the wrong place. The via

negativa can

> be scary, since its purpose is to remove anyplace to stand. Most

people

> use a combination of both positiva and negativa over time.

>

> There are people on the list here who know much more about

Krishnamurti

> than I do - but my impression is that he is more helpful on the

negativa

> side than the positiva side.

>

> And as for advaita/satsang teachers not being open to questioning

the very

> presumptions of advaita - often the teachers themselves have not

looked or

> experienced that deeply these things. They'll tell you to "kill

the mind"

> or "get quiet" or "drop the question." But on the other hand, a

> penetrating answer from a good teacher on a deep and sincere

question can

> actually accomplish the implosion of the question and the end of the

> questioning impulse. This is *permanently* effective for that

seeker,

> whereas merely being told, "drop the question" can turn into an

ongoing

> polishing-like, repetitive practice.

>

> Love,

>

> --Greg

>

>

>

>

>

> <<<<

[Guest guest]

Thank you JB for your thoughtful posts and continuing inquiry. The True

Teaching has a certain paradox in it because the "True Master" does not see

him/her self as the "Teacher" or in any way different than the "student" or

anyone else. Yet, he or she may be viewed as different due to the needs of

the student.

 

I have heard of teachers who are abusive, sometimes very abusive to their

students in the name of enlightenment. Yet, Self-Awareness and

Self-Realization spontaneously have the effect of making our emotions and

feelings and those of others transparent to us. The unconscious and the

invisible is made conscious and visible and there is tolerance and

acceptance of suffering involved in that. This is a natural effect on the

mind and body of Self-Realization. A movement towards Self-Realizations is

the movement in the moment towards Awareness Recognizing It Self in All

Purity and Clarity. So the behavior of such a person, who has become that

sensitive to the arising of thoughts and feelings, would be harsh under only

the most unusual and extreme circumstances. Great Sages such as Ramana

Maharshi exemplify the first principle of Yoga. Ahimsa Param Dharma -

Nonviolence is the Supreme Religion.

 

The Inquiry "Who Am I" is a potent practice which can help one to discover

the nature of Awareness that looks through the eyes as this passage is read.

The feeling/awareness that "I Exist" is a fundamental fact and

self-verifying. Therefore, sages like Ramana have said, hold to this

awareness that "I Exist" which is natural to you. The beginning and the

ending must be Here and lie in this Pure Simplicity. This is the main path,

but there are many side paths. Because of Grace of God emanating from the

Heart, even the side paths can become the main path for those so inclined.

Therefore, there is no need to be critical of any path involving spiritual

practices to gain Self-Knowledge. As you know Mantra Yoga, Kundalini Yoga,

Raj Yoga, Jnana Yoga, all involve use of consciousness as an instrument to

discover its own nature and ultimately lead to Jnana or Self-Knowledge.

 

A spiritually mature mind is not seduced by a false teaching or a false

teacher that promises something which you do not have. The wise remain

utterly contented with what they have, their own nature, and where they are,

in their own Self, and see the bait of higher wisdom and knowledge (to be

given by someone else) as a mirage without any foundation what so ever.

 

Love to all

Harsha

[Guest guest]

Hi Harsha

Thanks for the sharing.

I am aware of that type of rough teacher. However Zen-stick roughness

might not necessarily indicate a genuiness/purity of realization.

 

But actually what I would like to have some feedback on is this:

You write:

> The feeling/awareness that "I Exist" is a fundamental fact and

> self-verifying. Therefore, sages like Ramana have said, hold to this

> awareness that "I Exist" which is natural to you. The beginning and

the

> ending must be Here and lie in this Pure Simplicity.

 

Concerning the 'I exist':

It seems to me that there is no doubt, this Sense of 'I am/exist' is

there.

On closer inspection though, as far as I can see, this 'Sense of I'

is like the smoke produced by a fire,.. the fire being the

whole 'story of me', the Image of myself, the structure and contents

of of thought/feeling.

Is that your observation also ?

 

If so, the way, it seems to me, that Ramana's statement is

interpreted/'practiced' by some, is that it results in a

reinforcing/strengthening of the 'I'.

 

If this is a wrong understanding, what is, according to you, the 'I'

that Raman points to ?

 

Is it this sense of 'me', _and_ an Inquiry into seeing the

truth/falsity/unreality of it ?

 

Or is it, the 'I' that is refered to in 'I am That', or the so-

called 'True Self' ?

If it is this Self, how can the 'false-self' hold onto the True

self ? Also if one thinks one does so, would it not be a case of self-

deceit ?.. like holding onto an Image of God/saviour.. (though these

might bring comfort).

How would holding onto a factor of self-delusion, bring one to the

Real ?

 

Perhaps you would share some of your understanding on this.

Thanks.

jb.

 

 

 

, "Harsha" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote:

> Thank you JB for your thoughtful posts and continuing inquiry. The

True

> Teaching has a certain paradox in it because the "True Master" does

not see

> him/her self as the "Teacher" or in any way different than

the "student" or

> anyone else. Yet, he or she may be viewed as different due to the

needs of

> the student.

>

> I have heard of teachers who are abusive, sometimes very abusive to

their

> students in the name of enlightenment. Yet, Self-Awareness and

> Self-Realization spontaneously have the effect of making our

emotions and

> feelings and those of others transparent to us. The unconscious and

the

> invisible is made conscious and visible and there is tolerance and

> acceptance of suffering involved in that. This is a natural effect

on the

> mind and body of Self-Realization. A movement towards Self-

Realizations is

> the movement in the moment towards Awareness Recognizing It Self in

All

> Purity and Clarity. So the behavior of such a person, who has

become that

> sensitive to the arising of thoughts and feelings, would be harsh

under only

> the most unusual and extreme circumstances. Great Sages such as

Ramana

> Maharshi exemplify the first principle of Yoga. Ahimsa Param

Dharma -

> Nonviolence is the Supreme Religion.

>

> The Inquiry "Who Am I" is a potent practice which can help one to

discover

> the nature of Awareness that looks through the eyes as this passage

is read.

> The feeling/awareness that "I Exist" is a fundamental fact and

> self-verifying. Therefore, sages like Ramana have said, hold to this

> awareness that "I Exist" which is natural to you. The beginning and

the

> ending must be Here and lie in this Pure Simplicity. This is the

main path,

> but there are many side paths. Because of Grace of God emanating

from the

> Heart, even the side paths can become the main path for those so

inclined.

> Therefore, there is no need to be critical of any path involving

spiritual

> practices to gain Self-Knowledge. As you know Mantra Yoga,

Kundalini Yoga,

> Raj Yoga, Jnana Yoga, all involve use of consciousness as an

instrument to

> discover its own nature and ultimately lead to Jnana or Self-

Knowledge.

>

> A spiritually mature mind is not seduced by a false teaching or a

false

> teacher that promises something which you do not have. The wise

remain

> utterly contented with what they have, their own nature, and where

they are,

> in their own Self, and see the bait of higher wisdom and knowledge

(to be

> given by someone else) as a mirage without any foundation what so

ever.

>

> Love to all

> Harsha

[Guest guest]

Dear JB,

 

Thanks for sharing this. You've pointed to what seems a case of electronic

manipulation by a guru and croneys. Like the high school bully and his

buddies. Yay for the Karate Kid! I think NDS is more along the lines of

what you were looking for. Gurus are losing a lot of respect these days.

A friend of mine told me on the phone that he thinks "Advaita is dying

these days."

 

Love,

 

--Greg

 

At 10:59 AM 10/5/00 -0000, J B wrote:

>>>>

Hi Gregory

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

You pointed to the authoritative instructions of some teachers: 'do

this, don't do that'.

There is a discussion-forum (I can evt. mention the name if of

interest) where the moderator is also the guide/teacher, He seems to

be inspired by Ramana, though he says : no path, here is the end of

the search.

<<<<

 

....

>>>>

[Guest guest]

Namaste All,

 

Thank you for putting this into words, most of the spiritual seekers

on the planet have no faith in their own ability, naturally. The

sense

of duality and lonliness makes us go outside of ourselves to find

'Someone who knows', and will teach and keep us company on the

journey. That is a continuation, projection of the duality and a trap

of course...

 

Om Namah Sivaya, Tony.

 

 

Harsha wrote:>

>

> A spiritually mature mind is not seduced by a false teaching or a

false

> teacher that promises something which you do not have. The wise

remain

> utterly contented with what they have, their own nature, and where

they are,

> in their own Self, and see the bait of higher wisdom and knowledge

(to be

> given by someone else) as a mirage without any foundation what so

ever.

>

> Love to all

> Harsha

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg,

I guess we can only receive the same respect that we give. What is

interesting is that I believe most of the teachers and gurus start

out with good intentions but get side tracked by their own issues and

ego takes over the play. Years ago, I'm not sure where I read it, I

remember a Spiritual Teacher writing about how a true Guru is your

best friend. As we all move along and grow we begin to 'catch-up'

with the teacher and if some teachers were not so insecure about

their authority and uniqueness they would allow their students to

move into a place of 'Divine Friend"....in my dream world it would be

so uplifting if spiritual teachers, students and seekers could stay

together in love.

Linda

> Gurus are losing a lot of respect these days.>A friend of mine told

me on the phone that he thinks "Advaita is dying>these

days.">Love,->-Greg//

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of

the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart

to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the

Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It

Self. Welcome all to a.To from this list,

go to the ONElist web site, at www., and

select the User Center link from the menu bar on the

left. This menu will also let you change your subscription

between digest and normal mode.

[Guest guest]

Dear JB,

 

In a recent post on Advaita-Ashram, I tried to address the very same

issue you are raising here.

 

Like yourself I would also like to enquire from Harsha or anyone else

about the validity of Maharshi's statement:

 

Harsha:

<< The feeling/awareness that "I Exist" is a fundamental fact and

> self-verifying. Therefore, sages like Ramana have said, hold to this

> awareness that "I Exist" which is natural to you.

 

(M) There is nothing self-verifying about this presumed fundamental

fact. Has anyone EVER come upon , seen, directly intuited,

experienced this thing called 'I'? Where does it recide. What is it

made of? It seems to me that the only fact about the 'I'-sense, the

presumed observer/experiencer/awareness behind phenomena is that it is

not-true. So many has blindly followed the vision which Maharshi has

given of this 'self-verifying' fact and, because so many have been

repeating this statement uninspectedly since him, it is as though it

has become indeed a 'self-evident 'truth. Like the word god, or 'I'.

Repeat it often enough and before you know this thing exists- in

heaven, or somewhere inside this body.

 

The way I understand this statement and form of practice from

Maharshi, is that he was rather naive about the depth of the problem.

The failure of the Advaitists movement in the USA and very ofetn

elsewhere to find its feet in the actual soil of real, serious and

useful practice, and the endless debate about the reality of the

non-dual condition, and the endless repitition of all the monkey-minds

going around trying to convince evryone around them that all is OK,

just do nothing,You are That, all this nonsense, has much of its root

in the naivity of Maharshi's understanding of the un-enlightened

state. This says nothing about his actual state or non-state. But if

someone offers a teaching so simple as the only teaching to undiscover

the truth of non-dualism, then to my understanding it is a tragic

mistake.

 

No doubt some will be able to use this teaching. No doubt, a great

many more will fail to put it to any effective outcome. The reason

lies amongst others in the fact that this apparaently 'self-evident'

thing has been seen and described by so many in the same way Harsha

has done here:

 

<<discover

the nature of Awareness that looks through the eyes as this passage is

read... >>

 

(M) What is this awareness that is looking out through the eyes? Has

anyone ever come upon it? Or is it simply the play of the deluded

'I'-conscious state which takes itself as the fundamental center of

all experience and presents itself to the deluded mind as the

observer/awareness/I am/I-exist notion. Can we not become real and

discriminate factually between the deluded self-conscious state of the

separate 'I', presenting itself as the 'self-evident' awareness

looking out through the eyes, and perhaps something categorically

other than this to which Maharshi might point? I do not know if

Maharshi means anything else. I merely say 'perhaps' he means

something deeper, something real, something really conscious as a

principle of life beyond the confines of the contracted state of the

false 'I'.

 

But until the false sense of the reality of the separate one,

presenting itself to human experience as the awareness looking out

through the eyes has been inspected, understood and transcended, this

rather adolescent approach to the matter of self-enquiry will continue

to sow the confusion so evident in Advaitist circles in the USA and

elsewhere.

 

What appears as the 'self-evidence' of the 'I' is really a lie. It

is untruth being mistaken for truth. It is Samsara being mistaken for

the first glimpse of Nirvana. It is the mind perpetuating itself as

suffering and duality. It is the very essense of illusion and

self-delusion. The 'I' which presents itself to the initial enquirer,

and which is presented to him/her by Maharshi as a sign of the

enlightened consciousness, is categorically of a diffrerent nature in

its functioning and presentation as any presumed 'deeper' awareness to

which Maharshi might point.

 

'I'-consciousness is not on a continuum with 'Consciousness as the

essense of life' - if there is such a thing, state, non-thing. A

categorical break between the deluded 'I'-conscious state and the

wholeness of life has to happen. It is beacuse this distinction to my

understanding has not been drawn by Maharshi, that I have referred to

his teaching as naive and even misleading, underestiaming and not

understanding and appreciating the depth of the dualistic world

vision.

 

This is my understanding.

 

Love Moller.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

J B <JB789

05 October 2000 05:51

Re: Questioning 'I am not the

feelings/thought..I am That'

 

 

Hi Harsha

Thanks for the sharing.

I am aware of that type of rough teacher. However Zen-stick roughness

might not necessarily indicate a genuiness/purity of realization.

 

But actually what I would like to have some feedback on is this:

You write:

> The feeling/awareness that "I Exist" is a fundamental fact and

> self-verifying. Therefore, sages like Ramana have said, hold to this

> awareness that "I Exist" which is natural to you. The beginning and

the

> ending must be Here and lie in this Pure Simplicity.

 

Concerning the 'I exist':

It seems to me that there is no doubt, this Sense of 'I am/exist' is

there.

On closer inspection though, as far as I can see, this 'Sense of I'

is like the smoke produced by a fire,.. the fire being the

whole 'story of me', the Image of myself, the structure and contents

of of thought/feeling.

Is that your observation also ?

 

If so, the way, it seems to me, that Ramana's statement is

interpreted/'practiced' by some, is that it results in a

reinforcing/strengthening of the 'I'.

 

If this is a wrong understanding, what is, according to you, the 'I'

that Raman points to ?

 

Is it this sense of 'me', _and_ an Inquiry into seeing the

truth/falsity/unreality of it ?

 

Or is it, the 'I' that is refered to in 'I am That', or the so-

called 'True Self' ?

If it is this Self, how can the 'false-self' hold onto the True

self ? Also if one thinks one does so, would it not be a case of self-

deceit ?.. like holding onto an Image of God/saviour.. (though these

might bring comfort).

How would holding onto a factor of self-delusion, bring one to the

Real ?

 

Perhaps you would share some of your understanding on this.

Thanks.

jb.

 

 

 

, "Harsha" <harsha-hkl@h...> wrote:

> Thank you JB for your thoughtful posts and continuing inquiry. The

True

> Teaching has a certain paradox in it because the "True Master" does

not see

> him/her self as the "Teacher" or in any way different than

the "student" or

> anyone else. Yet, he or she may be viewed as different due to the

needs of

> the student.

>

> I have heard of teachers who are abusive, sometimes very abusive to

their

> students in the name of enlightenment. Yet, Self-Awareness and

> Self-Realization spontaneously have the effect of making our

emotions and

> feelings and those of others transparent to us. The unconscious and

the

> invisible is made conscious and visible and there is tolerance and

> acceptance of suffering involved in that. This is a natural effect

on the

> mind and body of Self-Realization. A movement towards Self-

Realizations is

> the movement in the moment towards Awareness Recognizing It Self in

All

> Purity and Clarity. So the behavior of such a person, who has

become that

> sensitive to the arising of thoughts and feelings, would be harsh

under only

> the most unusual and extreme circumstances. Great Sages such as

Ramana

> Maharshi exemplify the first principle of Yoga. Ahimsa Param

Dharma -

> Nonviolence is the Supreme Religion.

>

> The Inquiry "Who Am I" is a potent practice which can help one to

discover

> the nature of Awareness that looks through the eyes as this passage

is read.

> The feeling/awareness that "I Exist" is a fundamental fact and

> self-verifying. Therefore, sages like Ramana have said, hold to this

> awareness that "I Exist" which is natural to you. The beginning and

the

> ending must be Here and lie in this Pure Simplicity. This is the

main path,

> but there are many side paths. Because of Grace of God emanating

from the

> Heart, even the side paths can become the main path for those so

inclined.

> Therefore, there is no need to be critical of any path involving

spiritual

> practices to gain Self-Knowledge. As you know Mantra Yoga,

Kundalini Yoga,

> Raj Yoga, Jnana Yoga, all involve use of consciousness as an

instrument to

> discover its own nature and ultimately lead to Jnana or Self-

Knowledge.

>

> A spiritually mature mind is not seduced by a false teaching or a

false

> teacher that promises something which you do not have. The wise

remain

> utterly contented with what they have, their own nature, and where

they are,

> in their own Self, and see the bait of higher wisdom and knowledge

(to be

> given by someone else) as a mirage without any foundation what so

ever.

>

> Love to all

> Harsha

 

 

//

 

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the

nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart

to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the

Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It

Self. Welcome all to a.

 

To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

www., and select the User Center link

from the menu bar

on the left. This menu will also let you change

your subscription

between digest and normal mode.

[Guest guest]

Advaita wrote:

> What appears as the 'self-evidence' of the 'I' is really a lie. It

> is untruth being mistaken for truth. It is Samsara being mistaken for

> the first glimpse of Nirvana.

 

Separate, define, categorize, count

the clouds in the sky.

Still just one sky.

How can One know

what another sees?

How can One see

what another knows?

One sky seeing itself

knows seeing

and knowing

is illusion

 

Mace